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1/12/01 5:54:00 PM Eastern Standard Time
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Ross:
>When a woman says something like "I insist that you spend Valentine's Day
>with you" or "I won't have sex with you if you're having sex with other
>women" I kind of sort all of that stuff into the "She's testing me" bin and
>I just say to myself "Oh, good. She's just shown me that she's trying to
>control me and given me an opportunity to shut her down."
Ok..I think I am starting to see what Sis is REALLY saying. It's
not the request so much that is rejected out of hand, but the way in
which it is put as an ultimatum. He won't respond to DEMANDS and
ULTIMATUMS, but requests are another thing.
If he decides he does like a woman and WANTS to spend Valentine's
day with her, HE'LL set it up so she spends it with him. But tests
that are part of forcing him into exclusivity or taking on a role he's not
ready or willing he shuts down.
I get it.
>And
>if she starts making noise like she wants to spend Valentine's Day with me,
>I
>might shoot back something funny like "What are you, my wife now? I'm
>working on Valentine's Day, so call your ex boyfriend up. He'd probably
>looooove to buy you dinner and some chocolate, you know." Now, I would
>deliver this in a funny and 'impossible' way so she took the hint.
What is the difference between "making noise", "making a request"
and "making an ultimatum or demand?" Do we see ALL of what a woman
verbalizes as wanting to be a "challenge or test"?? Where, in here is
the option to say "yes"?
>By the way, women take hints a lot better than you'd guess. If you tell
them
>that you're busy Wednesday and Thursday, but you'd like to see them Friday,
>in my experience they'll usually take the hint not to ask about what you're
>doing the other nights, etc. If you don't call them for a week or two,
>they'll take the hint that you're not that interested. This can work the
>other way, as well, as women often take hints that don't exist and assume
>too much. There's a dark side to every virtue.
Yes, and what works often works to the exclusion of trying things
better. Why not just tell them, "I'm not interested?"
> I prefer my approach, because for me it
>balances treating her well and respectfully while staying in control.)
I totally see the control mechanisms; other than pleasing them
sexually, I don't see the treating them well part. If you are
constantly evasive in your communication with them and NEVER give
them what they ask for (not demand) then where is the treating them
well part?
>The key here is being so fantastic when you have sex with her that she
can't
>get what you offer anywhere else, so she keeps getting it from you, no
>matter what else you're doing.
So, if you give them great sex that they can't find elsewhere, it
gives you a license to be denying, evasive, cold, and utterly
controlling in every other aspect?
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Paul:
Ross's acronym for certain women - NET girls - hits the mark exactly. These
women are prominent in the bar scene and such; however, I always called them
man-to-man-to-man women. As an aspiring PUA, SS'er, I've learned a lot from
observing these women since many of them aren't the ultimate HB's but they
do go through a lot of men that are considered attractive, socially-elevated
and prosperous.
Well, I moved back to Portland, Oregon after two years in Washington DC.
For me, DC was difficult to sarge in. My last close in that area was with a
woman who I sarged, met for a drink (coffee meetings didn't work for me in
DC) and walked around Alexandria. She treated me like dirt - I ignored this
mostly, thinking, preparing for another time. Later I sent a couple of
rounds of e-mails, called, set up one more meeting. I stood her up,
unplugged my phone, blocked her e-mail address. Two weeks later I
accidentally ran into her at a bar. I ignored her, she came up to me yelled
at me: I supplicated, then criticized, gave, took away, gave, took away,
etc... We met the next day and she attacked me. I hated doing it this way
but I found that the men in that area supplicated so hard and the gender
ratios were so out of whack, I couldn't get anything else to really work
unless the woman was a tourist or was married.
Now I'm back in Portland and I've had pretty good success without doing much
at all. Last week I went out and sarged here for the first time. This is
really a good place to sarge and PU women. I like it. Women like to be
approached here on Planet Portland and the quality of the women is pretty
good.
Is there anyone in the Portland, Oregon area who wants a wingman? My e-mail
address is jon***p@ma***.com[ ? ]
Commenting on Devil Boy:
I'm in my upper middle thirties and here is what I say to younger HB's.
She: How old are you?
Me: I'm 58 years old.
She: No you're not! You're lying!
Me: No, I'm not lying and yes I am that old, you should see my mom, she's
106 and she could put every woman to shame here.
She: How old are you?
Me: How old are you? You're about what, 20, 21, right? Or is it 19?
She: I'm older than that!
Me: OK, where did you get your Master's Degree? I enjoy intellectually
stimulating conversations and although one can glean and acquire a
considerable amount of knowledge through individual studies. I have
discovered that a classical education provides a foundation (insert more
bullshit here)
She: Uh, well, I went to school at Podont U and I have a degree in
business.
Me: That's interesting, one of my Master's degrees is an MBA. I squeezed
that into a very short amount of time. I wasn't overly difficult (banter,
banter, banter, banter...)
She: How old are you?
Me: Do you qualify all the men you're interested in like this? I think
part of the road to becoming friends is acceptance. Realizing that when you
really like this person, you can see the qualities and insights (pattern,
etc). OK, I'm 21.... (pause), I'm 36.
She: (You'll get a variety of responses including "I'm 25 and received my
doctorate in whatever." There, make like it's no big deal and ask the
school location and subject and then shrug as if unimpressed. For me this
is a sincere response because I never am.)
Incidentally, I closed the 25-year old HB four days later in Baltimore,
Maryland.
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Eric:
Interesting glimpse of Sisonpyh's lifestyle sleeping with 5 women. I am
working on having a similar lifestyle but recently have been feeling that it
will not be enough to make me really happy and fulfilled.
A few years after breaking up with a girl I think everybody experiences that
you will begin to forget how their faces and bodies looked like. Pictures
help, but it still feels like a loss - "I had her but I can hardly remember
it and have nothing else to show for it"
What about the next step? I read in the tabloids a few months ago about a
guy in New York who had 23 kids with 9 different women. I know nothing else
about this case, he might be a "hit-and-run"-type of guy which of course is
totally irresponsible, both towards the kids and their moms.
Compared to a regular PUA's lifestyle having kids would cost a lot more
money. However, personally in terms of long-term feeling of fulfillment and
achievement I think it would be worth it.
Does anybody have any experience scheduling several girls with kids? Or
living together with several girls in the same house, all having kids with
you? What about screening for girls that are willing to raise kids by
themselves with just financial support and occasional visits?
IMHO that would be the ultimate challenge.
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David:
In the text I've quoted, Ross had something to say about guys who put women
in the '10' category based on looks alone.
>I have no problem with guys shooting for whatever floats their
>boat; whatever is a "10" for them. My issue here is that no one seems
>to be discussing what MAKES a "10" a "10" other than physical
>appearance.
>
>In my book, a woman who LOOKS like Gabby Reese, but who is also
>self-absorbed, neurotic, hearing voices or whatever is NOT a 10,
>although her body make measure up to my "10" standards. To me, such a
>woman is more like a MINUS 11.
>
>I don't doubt it works; there are zillions of very disturbed (and
>very hot looking) women that will go along with this. The issue is,
>at what cost to the practitioner? The kind of "10" who would go for
>this is either very young and doesn't know any better or very
>disturbed, and so in my book doesn't measure as a "10". But to each
>his own.
I picked up a very useful 1-10 rating system in the most unlikely of
places. The passenger seat of a tow-truck, on the way from Bakersfield to
Costa Mesa with my broken down, piece of crap car on the flatbed. The guy
driving the truck used to have a job that had him travelling all over the
country to do training's. While spending a month or two in cities far from
home, he was always finding a woman to be with.
During the conversation, even though I was still in major AFC land, I was
noticing in him many of the traits that PUA's personify. One of the things
that most sticks out in my mind is the rating system he came up with. It
starts with you, and what you want from a woman. With a list of what you
want in mind, you can then tally up the points while you're talking to her.
Good looking is 1 point, or maybe 2 if she's really, really hot. The
driver said that he usually ends up with girls in the 6-8 range. For
comparison sake, my list includes;
Magnetic personality
Friendly
Outgoing
Intelligent
Uniquely opinionated
Fine as fuck
Challenging
Energetic
Experimental
Has a good job
Likes to do what I like to do
Consistency
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Vinigarr:
> Here are a couple of topics I'd like to see comments on:
> The Roll of Persistence
A friend of mine (has been with over 500 women) said
that the roll of persistence has been the key in
seducing all the women he has been with.
He says that unless a woman tells him
"don't call me any more" he will continue to
call her and pitch for the meet. His rationale
is, if she doesn't tell him to stop calling,
then there is some interest, and persistence is
what overcomes the resistance.
His pitch is always light, with the pre-tense
of having fun. He asks them to join him in whatever he is
going to do, e.g. "I'm going over to Starbucks, why don't you meet me,
it'll be fun" and if she declines _and this important :
HE NEVER CHANGES HIS TONE. He'll say something like
"awww too bad... I'm gonna have fun.. it would have been nice
for you to come by.. ok.. well anyway.. I gotta go.. take care "
The next time he calls, he will keep the same light, fun tone and
inform her of the fun she missed out on and pitch again. This will go on and
on, until she says YES, which he said is usually by the 5th pitch (and
sometimes it's been as many as 10 pitches).
He never calls from the same phone twice, so caller ID
ditching doesn't happen. Every so often he will leave a message
on her machine, but if he doesn't get a callback, the next time
he speaks to her directly he'll say "I left a message.. and I missed
your callback" or "I got your message on my voicemail" and go from
there.
He says using this tactic they either become a customer
or tell him to get lost, which is only about 10% of the time.
I have mixed feelings about this tactic. I think it borders
AFCism, yet it works for him. In marketing, it has been said that
it takes up to 7 tries before a lead is converted to a customer,
so I guess this might apply to seduction as well.
I asked him why he would waste his time like that,
his response was "most guys will flap on the phone for
up to an hour and get nothing, a 30 second call every couple of
days, is hardly a waste of time... AND how many guys have the balls
and ability to maintain composure after getting blown off a few times..
I am strong, I know what I want, and I go for it.. my persistence shows
my beliefs."
Whatcha guys think?
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Craig:
>Ross:
>Here is my question for Sisonyph (hey, that's "hypnosis" in the
>mirror!) and the rest of the gang:
>
>If you knew it would get you even MORE hot women, would you wear an
>earring, get a tattoo on your back, and wear sunglasses at all times?
>
>Put another way: at what point does tweaking yourself to be cool in
>the eyes of a certain kind of woman go too far for you?
>
>Personally, I would NEVER get a tattoo even if it meant Naomi and
>Neve Campbell would play mubledy-peg on my cock.
>
>So...guys...where do you draw the line in tweaking your personal
>appearance?
I know I would get a lot more women if I had full sleeve tats, but things
wouldn't work out with the new girls because they would be looking for a guy
who has tatoos FOR HIS OWN REASONS and when we hung out they would find out
that I'm not that type of guy. Now, I do hair maroon and black hair and
earrings but this is congruent with who I am and I get the same amount and
type of girls that I got when I had long blond hair and looked more surfer
style. Phil says that you have to dress (and do) everything in your life
for your own reasons or you will never get the type of women that are right
for you. You will get the type who are right for the guy you are trying to
be...and the QUALITY women can sense a wannabe like dogs sense fear.
(Commenting on Sisonpyh):
>2. I have read several books about sex and how to make a woman feel good.
>And I recommend that everyone read as much as possible. Take a lot of time
>kissing and finding the parts of her body that she likes touched. Smell
her
>a lot. Say sexy things to her about how she turns you on. Keep teasing
her
>for hours. When she say's "I want you inside of me" say "No, not yet" and
>so
>on. Good books are Sexational Secrets: Erotic Advice Your Mother Never Gave
>You by Susan Crain Bakos, Secrets of Sensual Lovemaking by Leonardi (the
one
>just mentioned on this newsletter), The Fine Art of Erotic Talk by Gabriel,
>etc. If you're the one who has made her feel the best, she'll want more.
>
>That's my perspective.
This is very important. Phil says that everything in life is 50/50 (like
yin yang) and sex is 50% of any relationship. This was news to me because I
thought women were more into the emotional connection, but Phil says that
the emotional connection can't be truly strong without great sex, and vice
versa, and that's why women need someone who is good in bed just as much as
they need someone with their ideal personality. Now does anyone have any
ideas on how to let a girl know you are good in bed BEFORE you get to the
bedroom without being blatant or being a good dancer or kisser?
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Alan:
> Ross:
> Cliff, I agree. I also and in addition to this think that it can
> be important to ask what you REALLY want in life and to ask, from
> time to time, if what you are aiming at is really what works best
> for you.
>
> I have no problem with guys shooting for whatever floats their
> boat; whatever is a "10" for them. My issue here is that no one
> seems to be discussing what MAKES a "10" a "10" other than
> physical appearance.
I, for one, haven't raised it because I thought this newsletter
focused on practical "nuts and bolts" stuff. So I didn't want
to degrade the signal-to-noise ratio with OT posts.
Looks are important to me, but her attitude towards sex is far more
important. So there is no particular physical "type" that hooks me.
I have preferences in looks, but they are just that - preferences.
For every preference I can name - face, hair, weight, boob size,
body shape, skin color - I can think of a chick who turned me on
who didn't have that preference.
For me, her attitude is key. If sex isn't important to her - if
she doesn't share my attitude of getting the most pleasure of
sex and cultivating it - then I don't want her.
It's her attitude that most turns me on. A great-looking model
who is cold leaves me cold. I don't want her. I don't give a
fuck how many other guys do.
In this respect, I guess I'm like a lot of chicks: it's how I
feel when I'm with her that determines how attractive she is
to me.
I'm looking for a chick who can ooze enthusiasm and horniness;
who is fully present, straight-up, and confident enough not to
want to play head games. After that, I want her to be smart,
if not educated, and interesting to talk to.
I've been in LTR's with chicks who have low sex drives and little
interest in sex. And I was miserable. So it's now part of my
screen.
I'm just about to LJBF a chick who is low drive and who
"doesn't have much sexual experience" (her words).
She has little experience, IMHO, because she has little
interest. So she fails my screen. I like her: she's smart and
educated, she has integrity, she's interesting to talk to. But
for me, spending sarging/sexual time with her would be a waste.
...
> Ross:
> Ok, this is getting VERY useful and profound; I'm tempted to ask
> permission to post this to MY list, damn it!
>
> I think women ARE confused because they are battling inwardly
> between:
>
> 1. What society PROGRAMS them into wanting; what society says
> they SHOULD want.
>
> 2. What they are USED to responding to; what is familiar, what
> "feels" comfortable, what SEEMS to be the real "them".
>
> 3. What would really come along and free them, liberate them,
> thrill them, make them happy.
>
> That's why I seldom take what they initially say or do at much
> face value and that is the reason for their "confusion" and their
> often wacky behavior.
This is deep. This is a powerful frame to have when meeting chicks.
That what a chick reveals to you at first is some amalgam of 1, 2,
and 3; but until you establish a connection with her and lead her
imagination and take her inside herself, you don't know how much
of number 3 is in that initial mixture.
AFC's have been conditioned to treat what she projects as all number
3. Hence the supplicative gift giving and dating.
Another consequence of that frame: seduction isn't some kind of con
game, with two players trying to outmaneuver each other. But as a
way of getting in touch with the real sexy woman inside a chick,
and leading the chick to fulfill that inner woman with you.
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TomCat:
>Spanther: I guess my problem is not so much of finding a man but what
I
>find difficult is to keep them interested. MOST men want to have
intimate
>relations but they would have those same relations with other women.
Of course. That's only natural.
As I see it, there are two general strategies open to you. First, you
could find some stable, dependable, Nice Guy and latch on to him. The
downside is you may find it difficult to keep yourself interested. The other
is to
find a guy you like, and who can keep you interested, and then show him that
you can give him everything he could ever want from a woman. And deliver.
You can use the Speed Seduction» skills such as value eliciting and rapport.
If
you want an ongoing relationship, it will be an ongoing process.
>Spanther: I want to be able to seduce a man in a way that he only
desires
>me! I want that man to think only of me during the day and long for
me
>all the time. I want to be the most beautiful, desirable woman to the
man.
Isn't that the premise of Cosmo magazine? lol.
On a more practical note, you should look at Trucor's Build a Better
Lover seminar. I've seen a friend's BABGF videos, and the principles apply
both to men and women. The details will differ from person to person,
depending on what they desire as individuals, but the concepts are solid.
The
seminar would probably be a better choice for you, because you can ask
questions and get help with your situation in particular, and your own taste
in men.
>Spanther: I would also like to use techniques for other areas in my
life
>like work and use techniques to find or enhance my talents. I see
others
>that are successful and like what they're are doing in life and I want
to
Model the successful people. There are a lot of NLP books which cover
this.
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Halbster:
I don't know how many people realize that some of the keys to RJ's genius,
evolution, and results are that he thinks at different levels and asks
better questions. Dilts & Einstein are famous for saying a problem can't be
solved at the level it is created, and RJ is a master of changing levels.
Then Ross completely opens his mind, and tests and explores with wanton
curiosity. RJ masterfully embodies the Disney creativity strategy. After
he finds the problem he brainstorms, explores, tests (ruthlessly exploring
the limits), and then he becomes his own toughest critic. Then after RJ has
a successful system he abandons it to find a new better system.
The above statement was prompted by my continuing to think about RJ's
QUESTion about how far we'd go changing our image/self to attract a woman.
Where do you draw the line:
Here are some lines that I draw --
1) I won't do anything that will negatively effect my health and well-being
(drugs, smoking, unprotected sex, stressing myself out, missing workouts,
eating crap)
2) I won't do anything that can land me in jail.
2) I won't do anything that will endanger/hurt my career and/or a client.
3) I won't do anything that will hurt my family
4) As much as reasonably possible I try to avoid doing anything that will
harm anyone
What will I do -- I focus on keeping it fun, interesting, educational,
career building, sexually satisfying, money making.
There is some very simple test that I've never heard mentioned....
*****If she was butt ugly would she still be worth hanging out with?*****
This is perhaps the ultimate test
i.e. is she interesting, fun, someone you can learn from, someone you can
make money with, someone who you can enjoy exploring common interests,
interests, activities, and adventures with?
Does she have an attitude, mind, and personality compelling enough so that
I'd choose to hang out with her even if I could hook up with another more
attractive woman?
Do we have common interests?
Do we enjoy similar activities?
Can we connect at a spiritual level?
Can we connect intellectually?
Do we share similar values?
How adventurous is she?
Does she have a sense of humor?
Do I like her personality?
Does she have a great attitude?
Does she have any special talents or abilities?
What can I enjoy with her?
What can I learn from her?
Can I make money with her?
Is she a good lover?
Can I trust her?
How is her energy?
Has she earned my respect?
Can she pop a football between her legs:) (LOL!! I had a college friend who
used that test)
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Broadaxe:
I'm still a beginning PUA with seduction and I plan to have a weekly
schedule to go out many nights per week in bars by myself. I have found
myself improving so much from doing walkups at night spots. I now have more
guts to do things in front of groups, and I am just overall a more social
and fun person now. With women, I'm focusing on being more talkative, and
using the 3-second rule (thanks Mys!)
I feel that it's important to do approaches in bars and clubs, because that
is where pickups are more common in our society, and is a more natural
occurrence than in "non-pickup" settings. Even though women may be more cold
in these places, they are where bros have more opportunities to improve
their skills and FAST. I've realized how much more assertive its been making
me too, because you have to be quick, or you'll lose the chick! It's a great
feeling, to know that my personal power is growing with each night I go out
sarging.
A question for the masters though, esp. Mystery, if you don't approach the
girl within 3 seconds, and she sees you standing there, hesitating or
"lurking", is that a bad time to approach, or should you do it anyway?
And a question for Ross: With all due respect, if you can "do a 5 minute
phobia cure and whack-out someone's fear" then why do many dudes who have
gone to your seminars still have a fear of approaching women?
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BGC (D.S. now posts under 'BGC'):
I recently tried out the 'Indian Giver' kiss close on a second op with a
girl. It worked very well. The close was especially good because it
allowed for humor to be present in the kiss. The tension of the first
kiss -- which will be present, to a certain degree, I think, no matter what,
unless you're wrecked out of your mind -- was totally gone. Instead of
tense, it was funny. So whoever posted the tip, thanks.
After I left her apartment (she sucked me off) and I was reflecting on the
kiss, I realized this close can be improved.
Here is what I will do from now.
I will offer her a large breath mint (not a Certs), and when she puts it in
her mouth, say, "You know there are a lot of things you don't know about
me." Then she'll say, "Oh yeah?" and I say, "Yeah. For example, I'm an
Indian giver."
Now once I surprise her and take back the mint, I will let a pregnant pause
come over us.
Then I will say, "But you know, I AM trying to mend my ways. So I tell you
what. I'll give you half."
Then I'll bite the mint in half, and move back to her lips and give her
half!
Now she'll be laughing no doubt. Plus I will have kissed her twice without
any tension. And now it will be perfectly natural to just move back to her
lips for the real thing minus the mint.
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