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To that I say, bite me
2/4/01 9:31:06 AM Eastern Standard Time
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Here's a list of Men's free newslettters (there are lots of others on all
different topics that you can find by just moving aroung the site)
http://www.topica.com/dir/?cid=222
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Zvi:
Cliff, an impressive collection of reviews!!! I wonder which 5 books would
you recommend as THE top books to read?
PS: The Kinsey report was written in the 40s, and is hardly reliable. For
various reasons it wasn't reliable even when it was written, and it
certainly doesn't say much about the current state of *affairs*, 60 years
later.
My Comment: Firstly, while I have a lot of the books on that list, I don't
have most of them and of the ones I have, I haven't read all of them.
Having said that, among the books I found most interesting to read are the
following:
"Nice Guys Don't Get Laid"
The Rules For Getting Laid by David Graff, Ray Schwartz and Daniel Deitrich
How to Succeed With Women by Ron Louis, David Copeland
Johnny Shack's Women are Easy! (available for free by emailing me)
How to Get the Women you Desire into Bed by Ross Jeffries (which, strangely
enough, was not on that long list of books!).
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Ross:
>Marc:
>Is anyone familiar with Doc Love? This man from California who, although he
>is working inside the dating-frame, seems to have down certain attitudes
and
>perceptions, that sound a lot like watered down Speed Seduction». For
>example. "Only a woman's actions truly reflect her feelings toward you." He
>discusses how to screen her and writes "a man should only love a woman who
>loves him first and a lot".
Yes, his real name is Tom Hodges and he used to teach classes for the
Learning Annex back in the early-mid 80's until a SERIOUS drinking
problem put him into a coma and nearly killed him.
How do I know? Because I was one of his early students and tried to
help him market his system; we even made a tape together(pre-SS by
about 5 years) called "How To Beat The Dating Game".
It's an entirely passive system, based on watching a woman's
responses and building her interest by playing hard to get. No
knowledge of persuasive language, kino.....NONE of it.
Primitive and overall not worth your time.....
Ross (Changing subject):
>(Email from Shannon starts this exchange):
>Just to let you know- the thought of me and you hanging out in town caused
>a major disturbance with Scott. I almost broke up with him
That's interesting...how did "Scott" find out? By telepathy? Or did
she TELL him to get him riled up? Hmmmmm....
> I know it
>doesn't sound like much- but I don't play.
Translation: SHE PLAYS!
> When I decide I'm finished- I
>don't play stupid games.
Translation: she plays stupid games to the hilt, only fools herself
into thinking others can't see them!
> deeeeeply in love with a snazzy little 20
>year old who happens to be an upcoming playboy bunny
An UPCOMING Playboy Bunny? My, she's got powerful ambition, doesn't
she? She's full of herself and has NO clue how a town like Hollywood
will chew her up, assimilate her and spit her out a burned-out,
cynical hag.
> I don't want to let
>go- however I need freedom and lots of fresh air.
She wants her cake and wants to eat it to; I'd go into explaining
how women pick men to fill different roles, but NO man can be
everything A WOMAN NEEDS. He's her provider/stabilizer/meal ticket.
> So my GameMaster approach
>failed- however I'm still diligently trying to explain our friendship!
>And at the same time try and figure out why I'm so attracted to you but
>don't get any ideas ; )
Translation: I DO want to fuck you and have really fantasized about
it, but please don't think I'm easy when I drop to your knees and
suck your tube-steak!
>Anyway- please send me that stuff! You are so cool! We will talk next
>week!
We will talk next week IF I decide not to test you by not following
through. I really want YOU to do all the work, including all the
calling, etc. so **I** don't feel guilty when I finally cheat on Mr. 31
year old. Ok? So please don't REALLY count on me to call or follow
through...take me by the hand and the clit-ring and MAKE IT HAPPEN,
ok?
>Keep Smiling and Lots of Love
>Jelly Belly Yager Queen
>
>(Now GameMaster's reply:)
>
>Subject: Re: kitty kitty
>WAnyway, that led to a
>conversation about how you can not only fix that, but amp it up to the
point
>where your orgasms are 10 times, 20 times more powerful than you've ever
>experienced whether you are alone or with this man of your dreams.
I see where you are going with this, but careful! IF an experience
is WAYY outside some chick's frame of reference, however she might
long for it, she won't believe it can be real for HER!
Instead, I'd put the onus on HER! As in, "I've helped SOME ladies
really explore and discover just how far they can push their
pleasures, but not EVERYONE can be reached. It all depends on how
well YOU can focus in and what responses YOU can allow yourself to
have. The more someone responds, the more I can help them."
More importantly, I'd give her a little hands on demo, COVERTLY
anchor it, then fire the anchor as you future pace her being
somewhere else with you, really exploring as in, (fire anchor) I
don't know if you are adventurous..strong enough believing in who you
can be and who you are....to imagine just how far you could explore
good feelings...somewhere more quiet where you could really focus
in.....but as you tune into the need for that......what do you think
we can do to make that happen......like say, go somewhere a little
more quiet?
>that's
>what I was talking about and speaking strictly from a clinical standpoint I
>have helped a lot of women achieve their full potential and then some in
>that department. I have learned some amazing secrets about what women
>respond too in my research. And the fascination I have for Tantric sex, sex
>magick, female physiology, and some breathing techniques I've discovered
>that'll send you into orbit faster than 10 hits of windowpane sort of give
>me a little different perspective on all this. For example, did you know
>that there were three ways to stimulate the G-spot and they can ALL be done
>simultaneously during oral sex? You won't read that anywhere, I had to
>figure it out all by myself but the net result is astonishing.
I think you are over-selling. I get what you are attempting, but
less is more, in this case. More demo's less words. She doesn't
strike me as an overly-conceptual type anyway, and the ideas you
present may merely be fantasy for her, NOT an opportunity she has to
take! We men can translate fantasy (sexual especially) into action,
GIVEN ANY OPPORTUNITY, but women can't!
>Ohw:
>This might seem trivial but its a big step for me. Do you think attitude is
>more than 50% of all of seduction? If so, I'll probably focus on just that
>then. Since I doubt I'd be able to cover all of the seduction theories out
>there anyway, I might as well just focus on the most important ones.
>
>My Comment:
>It is probably 90% of seduction. If you have the right attitude, everything
>else will take care of itself.
I have to STRENUOUSLY disagree. I think it is deep insight into
the way women react and behave and think that has to be combined with
attitude.
The really good seducers understand female psychology and can get
out of their own way. They instinctively or otherwise have a very
good working understanding of frames, EXPECT testing, understand what
is behind it, and have their responses pretty much wired down. And
they do NOT idealize women.
I think good seducers know what to ignore and ignore it well. They
IGNORE the idealized vision of women that AFC's cling so tightly to.
They focus on a woman's behavior toward them and whether they are
getting sexual FIRST, before they start considering any long term
potential. They understand the power dynamics of beautiful, young
women and can turn that around or simply walk away.
If all of this constitutes "attitude" then I am with you.
My Comment: Perhaps I needed to elaborate. Attitude, to me, includes
concepts like "I am the prize, not her," "She's the lucky one to be with me
for however much I choose to be with her," "What I want is important, what
she wants is not important," "I make no excuses for my desires as a man,"
etc. (all in a non-offensive way, of course). Having the right base
thinking will, in my opinion, accomplish pretty much everything you want
(not the least because what comes out of your mouth as a result of having
these beliefs will reflect these attitudes). If you have the right
attitudes, and convey them congruently, people in general will gravitate to
you, not only women.
Ross (continuing):
As for the looks issue, previously discussed, charisma and
fascination go a long way towards making you a lot more attractive,
with a SUGGESTIBLE subject.
This is the key; looks mattering in what CONTEXT? In the context of
someone who is NOT especially suggestible, your looks could be an
insurmountable problem. In the context of a highly suggestible or
even fairly suggestible subject, they can swiftly and even laughably
be negated.
All you guys asking about "looks" are asking in a contextual void,
without ANY consideration for who is doing the picking.
Is a smoldering match "dangerous"? Not on top of a brick. But
right next to a puddle of gasoline, sure.
WITH A HIGHLY SUGGESTIBLE SUBJECT your looks don't mean squat.
Fortunately, given the right conditions, most folks are at least
somewhat suggestible, and it is the BRIGHTEST women who are MOST
suggestible (and often the champion athletes as well!).
As for picking out someone highly suggestible, go to a Major Mark
seminar and learn how or watch me work with a female volunteer (who I
select!).
Learn to screen for highly suggestible women and you'll do a lot
better around the "looks" barrier!
My Comment: I think my point about looks comes back to attitude. I think it
is your own thinking and behaviour about your looks which is the key. Now
not everything will work on everyone and perhaps suggestibility is the
doorway here, but I think it goes beyond that. To give an example, a woman
I know here told me a story about a guy she dated for a year or two who she
described as scrawny, bald, short, nothing to look at but who was the
sexiest guy she ever met. He was always, continuously spouting off at the
mouth in the most sexual, provocative, lusty way and her and all her friends
were totally turned on by him. They were on the one hand embarrassed
because he was constantly talking this way but it excited the hell out of
them. I think the example you give about (if I remember correctly) Voltaire
who said something like "Give me ten minutes to talk away my ugly face and I
will bed the Queen of France!" is more accurate. I think that we have all
had the experience of meeting someone that perhaps we had an initial
negative reaction to (often you hear stories about men and women who meet,
hate each other and end up lovers) but that as we got to know them we liked
them. And I think all women to varying degrees respond to what they sense
and feel is inside a person, not only their looks.
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Ron:
I just wanted to comment on the discussion you have had with OHW regarding
looks, etc.
When I first stumbled onto SS, one of the key factors in my decision to go
ahead and invest in Ross was the fact that he did not look like Tom Cruise.
Had he looked like Tom Cruise or something close to that, he would have lost
complete credibility with me and I would have passed his stuff off as just a
good looking guy able to get women with his looks and other peripheral
techniques.
I consider myself average looking. Women have never thrown themselves at
me. And for the first 29 years of my life I had seriously crooked buck
teeth which didn't help my looks or my self esteem much. On a really bad
day, I could look pretty gawdawful. 15 grand and two surgeries later, my
teeth were straight, they looked better, but I still had that "feeling" that
I didn't have it. I'm short, very skinny (110 lbs), got the big Jewish nose
and hair that pretty much does what it wants. The minute my hair gets wet,
I look like a frickin' chia pet.
Anyway, all that really doesn't matter to me now, like it used to primarily
because of what I've learned from Ross and many others.
Three years ago, I got into a "relationship by default". Ending it was
ugly. And I decided that I needed to take a break from relationships,
women, etc. to get my head on straight about all that. Fortunately, I
stumbled onto Ross Jeffries in my travels. For me it has taken a lot of
time to get into the right mind set about SS, as my feelings about myself
are/were similar to OHW.
WRT sex, I had not had sex for over two years and was not even sure I
remembered how to do it. The few women I had been with prior to that you
would not consider HB's so that scared me also. This brought up all kinds
of stuff. Can I do SS? Do I look good enough? Who am I to think I could
sleep with a beautiful woman? and on and on. It's all pretty much bull
shit, but when you've been thinking a certain way for so long, it can be
difficult to shake. I frankly was deathly afraid of beautiful women.
The other bigger challenge I want to mention became lusting after results
with SS because I felt I had so much to learn. And that's what happened for
me in the first year, I really got nowhere because I was so wound up
sexually it was affecting my thinking. I finally decided to do something
about that and kill a bunch of birds with one stone. A lot of guys may look
down on this, but I would venture to say that social conditioning about this
is probably the reason. (I used to myself) However, in my case, I felt I
had to start at square one. So, I hired an escort. A beautiful, mature
(not an 18 year sex kitten - I prefer older women) PROFESSIONAL escort who I
felt would help me. This did at least six things for me that I could put my
finger on. 1) It gave me the "experience" of being with a physically (and
hopefully) beautiful woman without ANY fucking pressure to use SS type
persuasion - I could hold this in my mind as a positive memory for
visualization. 2) Sexual release - it worked! 3) Building confidence - in
the week following my first experience with a very patient, very sensual
escort named "Maria" I felt like a whole new man - for me there was a
noticeable difference in my confidence because now I knew that if worst came
to worse I DID have somewhere to go for female interaction (albeit at a
small cash price) 4) Removing the lust-factor - this is a challenge - I'm
one of those guys who has a tendency to fall in lust and lose all sight of
what's going on - with an escort- you have no choice but to be mature about
this because they are there for one reason and one reason only - to make
money and please you as you want - a relationship outside of the
"transactional" is out of the question. 5) Time - I am an entrepreneur who
works solo - time and energy IS a problem for me - as it is for a lot of
people on this list - taking this step has saved me massive amounts of time
and dealing with bull shit. 6) Practice - I doubt whether anyone would
consider me "cool" - but I do have a sharp, cynical sense of humour which I
got to practice with Maria. Also, just talking with her makes a
difference.
This does cost money. In my case, I'm willing to trade cash for time and
experience. And I've had to make sacrifices. Like the time I put off going
to Mexico because I had just purchased Ross' course.
As I said, there are guys reading this who I know will say, "That's just a
chicken shit way of dealing with your challenge - get out and use SS." To
that I say, bite me. There are a million ways to skin the cat - this
approach for me has done more for my SS progress than many other things I
have done and I'm not finished yet.
To OHW I say this - alot of what you mentioned in your conversation with
Cliff I can relate to. You are not wasting your time with this stuff. Even
though I have a ways to go, just my simple interactions with people in
general has changed, dramatically. My "work" with Maria has helped ME a
ton. I put up with a lot less bull shit than I used to, and I'm really
starting to feel good about how I walk through the world. Somehow you need
to see yourself through kinder eyes. Again, look at Ross. On one of the
many video tapes he has he openly admits he's not a "looker". That's good
enough for me. Keep your head up and never give up. Never, ever give up.
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Gonesavage:
(Presenting Gonesavage's Aquarium Seduction Routine):
This is something that I've come up with and field tested in 6 instances
so far. Each time was successful in kiss closing or more. I'm presenting
it now for further ideas and feedback...
DISCLAIMER:
This is my method for getting a chick to my place. I'm not sharing this
in a PRESCRIPTIVE way. This is just what works for me. So, please don't
run out and buy an aquarium thinking it will help you get laid. However,
I will quickly mention that you can easily start a 10 gallon aquarium for
$50 and fish are so incredibly cheap and easy to take care of. (I use a 10
gallon tank and all my fish are $1-$3 each.)
OVERVIEW:
I'm in love with this technique because...
1) It presents me as a spontaneous person
2) It provides a hassle-free way to get chicks to my place *AND* in my
room
3) I can fucking go wild with metaphors
4) There might be some underlying themes of my being compassionate and
responsible (Nah...)
WHAT I DO:
After I meet a chick and get the #, maybe had a brief coffee outing, I
will then one evening call the chick and say something like this:
"Listen, I have been cooped up in my house cleaning all day (at work all
day, etc), and I promised myself that when I was done, I could go to the
pet store and maybe buy a fish for my aquarium. You seem like an open and
adventurous person, so I was wondering if you'd come along with me..."
HER: "You have an aquarium? Sure, sounds like fun!"
"I'll pick you up, just give me good directions."
Get directions. Set time. Pick her up. Know pet stores in your city.
Know when they close. Go to the pet store.
THIS IS WHY IT IS KILLER:
By her agreeing to go to the pet store with you, she is AT THE SAME TIME
agreeing to GO TO YOUR HOUSE to take care of the fish. Maybe she realizes
this from the start and is actually looking forward to seeing your place
and your aquarium. If she doesn't realize this from the start, SHE WILL,
by the time you BUY a fucking fish! What insensitive chick is going to
ask you to take her home BEFORE you have taken care of a delicate,
fragile, living fish?
AT THE PET STORE:
Look at the fish with her. Look at puppies or whatever else you want.
Riff any damn pattern you want! But, BUY A FISH. ONE FISH. Maybe
ask her hand in selecting the fish. At any rate, find yourself that one
unique fish that YOU JUST HAVE TO HAVE. (You'd be surprised how many fish
species are actually under $2 each, so no real $ spent.)
This is the shit I do that is fun as hell: At some point I say something
like, "You know, I'm going to call this fish [HER NAME] to commemorate
this evening..." OR... "There's just something about this fish, the way it
moves, or just how cute it is that reminds me of you." Say whatever you
want to LINK THE FISH TO HER.
She'll think it's cool. When we get in the car I say, "You hold onto
yourself, I don't want you spilling all over the seat..." Other shit like
that.
On the way home, I proceed to tell her about my aggressive Gourami named
[MY NAME]... that for whatever reason likes to torment and sometimes eat
the other fish. The last girl I had, I really went into this saying "Yeah
he is very picky...I keep selecting fish for him, but they never get along
together. I keep trying, but there is always something he dislikes about
them."
By this time she will be asking about the other fish I have, their names,
etc...Of course, they are all named after chicks.
AT MY PLACE:
Of course my aquarium is in my bedroom. "I'm going to take you into the
bedroom so you can acclimate yourself to your new surroundings...you the
fish, I mean." So while the fish is being acclimated to the water while
still in its bag, you must entertain the girl for a good fifteen minutes
or so. Then I say,
"Let's go release you..." And I lead her into the bedroom.
My aquarium is right in front of the bed. She can either sit on the edge
of the bed or on a rug I put in front of the aquarium, as I release the
fish. Of course the lights are out except the aquarium light. So we both
sit and watch HER get used to the new environment. Aquariums are
themselves so relaxing just to watch... there's your altered state.
Here's where I'd like to further develop a pattern about the aquarium.
Thematically I just haven't found anything I wanted to develop. Maybe the
feeling of safety and excitement at the same time? Anyway, it isn't hard
to transition to a poem or story while you have her here. I go for the
kiss right in front of the aquarium. 6/6 times so far it has worked.
I've found that chicks are eager to keep the metaphor going. The next
time I talk to them they usually ask how their fish is doing. This is a
snip from an email I got after this routine:
" Anyhow, warn the J fish that the Elizabeth fish will gobble him up
soon. She is a man-eater. And I think that J is a player-the fish of
course..."
And that's the Aquarium Seduction Routine!
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Cliff H.:
>Ohw:
>Does anyone have any recommendations for books that would exhibit a good
>PUA outlook (or a just plain good outlook on life)?
>Specifically, I'm looking for things such as how to view life/get the
>right attitude in general/maybe self esteem style stuff. Even be more
>FUN, since that is apparently what most women want. Not just limited to
>confidence/get yourself going. Attitude seems to be a very important
>factor, and something like this would help people learn it.
The book that made all the difference for me was Tony Robbins' "Awaken the
Giant Within". After reading it I did three things that made a huge
difference in my life.
The first was I decided to become "The Greeter". I made it a practice to get
to know one new person a day at work. If you've ever had the experience of
meeting someone and five seconds later can't remember his name (which
happened to me all the time) I found that if you just PAY ATTENTION and make
sure you got that person's name (repeat it back and make sure you got it
right) and use it when talking with him for the first time, you can remember
it. I figured one person a day was not too many. I didn't want to get
overwhelmed by sheer numbers of new names. So I ran around LOOKING for
people I didn't know and introduced myself. This is not difficult. All I did
was say, "Hi. I'm Cliff. What is your name?", and go on from there. After
that I would ALWAYS greet people by name, saying "Good morning, Bill", "Good
morning, Sue", etc. to everyone I knew, ALWAYS with good tonality and
congruence. After the initial greeting, I always say "Hi, George. How's it
goin'", "Hi, Emily. ...blah blah..." every time I run into someone. So after
a short time I'm on a first name basis with a lot of people I wouldn't have
met/known otherwise. Since I always used the person's name I was constantly
reinforcing the memory. I found that when you make the
effort (you go first) to be friendly, etc. that it gets reflected back to
you.
Then one day I got a surprise when this major babe shows up in my office and
says, "Karen told me how nice you were, so I just HAD to meet you!"
The second thing I did was I decided to project happiness. I was a pretty
lonely and depressed kinda a guy (very shy) for a long time and I've had
MANY people tell me, "You look depressed" even when I wasn't. This comes
from something I learned a long time ago. I was a model photographer for 17
years (I can tell some real tales about THAT, but I don't want to digress).
I read in a professional photography magazine that a very famous portrait
photographer said that about 1/3 of the people have mouths that naturally
turn down at the corners, about 1/3 have mouths that are straight across and
about 1/3 have mouths that turn up at the corners. So you have depressed,
neutral and happy. I am in the "depressed" group. So I made an effort to
project happiness, going along with being The Greeter. Every night when I
went to bed I would say, "Tomorrow I'm going to be Mr. Sunshine 'happy
happy' and say 'Hi' to everybody". Every morning when I first woke up I
would say, "Today I'm going to be Mr. Sunshine 'happy happy' and say 'Hi' to
everybody". So "happy happy" was the state I wanted to be in and that became
my anchor for the state. Every time I would approach someone I would say to
myself, "Happy happy" and immediately go into that state. Now I almost never
need to say it. Sometimes (very rarely now) I catch myself out of that
state, but it only takes "Happy happy" to go right back in. A few weeks ago
I strolled into the bank and this guy in line says, "You look happy". This
is from a total stranger. A few days later I was walking around the company
I work at and I noticed a girl smiling at me and realized that I had been
smiling myself. She was just responding to me going first. Does this sound
like it's working? It's become who I am (sound familiar?).
The third thing I did was change the way I respond to people asking, "How
are you"? Mostly I would say, "Fair to middlin'" or something neutral or
slightly negative (depressed kinda guy, ya know?). I've heard people say,
"Great!" (especially salesmen, for some reason. Maybe they learn it in sales
training), which always sounded phony to me. One guy I knew used to say,
"Better than most!", which I thought was pretentious and irritating. Now I
ALWAYS say, "Peachy!" (with tonality and congruence and "happy happy"). I
picked it because it's upbeat and different and I always want to
differentiate myself from everyone else. EVERYBODY reacts to this in some
way, always positively. One girl freaked out because she said her roommate
in college used to say it a lot. A lot of people with English as a second
language don't understand it, so I explain it to them and after that they
always light up when I use it. At a restaurant I go to frequently one of the
girls started calling me "Mr. Peachy". Now I'm "Mr. Peachy" to everyone
there. One side effect to all this is that now I'm stuck with "peachy". Just
for something different, I sometimes say, "O-KAY!" accentuating the "KAY!"
part. Now people will say, "What's wrong?" or "You're not peachy?". As I
said above, it's become who I am in an almost literal sense.
I know this is pretty long, but I wanted to explain it completely. Make a
plan
that fits the person YOU want to be and "become that man". As Robert J.
Ringer asked in his book "Looking Out for #1": How do you know if you're on
the right path if you don't know where you want to end up?
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Antony:
Just to share a few things, like introducing talking about feelings and
holidays and things...
The weirdest thing happened to me yesterday: I was wondering around top
floor (I go to a boarding school) and visited Tim in his room. He just
looked me straight in the eyes, and said, 'What do you really want from
life?'. This caught me off guard slightly, so if I were to look YOU in the
eyes, and ask what you REALLY want from life (sp), what would you say?
I tried this one out in class, and also on email, with surprisingly good
results. You can make them really go inside (eyes) and then I don't know
how to do this, but it might be easy to give suggestions? Any help with
this please?
I saw 'Three to Tango' yesterday - there are some nice lines in that,
especially in the beginning: the type like - does he fulfill you completely
in every way or does he just fill a niche in your life?, and also it is a
brilliantly entertaining film.
A good topic of discussion to get started about woman's needs: the quote
from 'Sliding Doors': "I'm a woman: we don't say what we want but we
reserve the right to get pissed off when we don't get it. That's what makes
us so fascinating." Discuss.
Used this in an email recently. Until then our emails were completely
asexual, but the reply I got started with 'I need a massage', and the tone
of her emails changed a lot after this one bit:
I used to want to be a lion tamer, you know, the anticipation and excitement
building up before you know what's coming next, the thrill of putting your
head deep into those open jaws, the relief of pulling out and knowing you
can do it again and again without the feelings ever wearing off, etc., etc.
If you end up as a car mechanic, how about we just be friends? Then I won't
have to pay some clueless twat ridiculous amounts of money to fix my spark
plug.
I'd like to see more on general conversation starters that don't get funny
looks when I start talking about them (maybe my body language» is wrong or
something?).
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
| cliff’s list advertisment section |
| Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are
just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links
to these emails. The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take
over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such
as proper mailing list software) for this list. If you were going to buy the product
anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going
at no extra cost to anyone. NON SEDUCTION-RELATED:
RECOMMENDED:
NOT REVIEWED YET:
|
| cliff’s free plugs section |
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all
recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back
here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up —
from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of
weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):
|
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