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The highest quality and the smoothest ride
4/1/02 5:48:27 PM Eastern Standard Time
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DISASTER struck again this last Thursday and a virus ended up destroying
everything in my hard drive. On top of that, the file that contains these
emails as they are being created was not backed up for 3-4 days (my
secretary didn't do it which she is supposed to do daily) so I lost all
unposted contributions that were made up until early last week. I also
lost all the email addresses of everyone who subscribed between about
Monday March 26 until March 28th, so if you know anyone who thought they
subscribed and isn't getting anything, please let them know that they need
to send me an email and resubscribe. We are setting up a more automatic
back up system which should be in place by the time you read this. I also
need to find a better email address software program - yes, I know some of
you had suggested a couple of programs to me in the past but I was way too
busy with work to check them out and now the information which was in my
unread emails has been deleted forever. I am also missing a copy of the
last email I sent out, so if someone could send that to me that would be
appreciated.
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David Update:
The mini-seminar held was a big success. The tapes are in process and we
got a good 7 hours of David recorded. Now what is needed is a name
(something good, like, uh, "Speed Seduction»" or "Double your Dating»"...) so
if anyone has any ideas, please let me know. Then I have to register that
name, and put a face/title/credits screen on the videotapes so they can
then be sent out. So we are close to being ready to get these in your hands.
Private in person or telephone consultations with David are available.
PLEASE NOTE: This David is not to be confused with David DeAngelo of
www.doubleyourdating.com (who has posted some great stuff here under the
name "Sisonpyh"), or David Shade (of www.davidshade.com).
David is particularly intuitive with regard to your specific individual
problems with certain women. You can get on the phone, answer his
questions on the situation, and he will give you very insightful advice on
how to succeed in your particular mission.
He's had some spectacular results, and you will be reading much more about
this soon.
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Problems getting these emails? I am still having some of you tell me you
haven't been getting them - mainly from aol accounts.
Let me know. I will figure something out eventually.
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Ken Gordon:
Ken Gordon, the creator of the KenXtions System will be holding an in-depth
seminar on "How to Pick Up Women and Close the Deal Using Powerful Wall
Street Tactics" Don't miss out. Click on the link for details:
San Diego Seminar - April 11th, 2002 (Details)
San Francisco Seminar - April 12th, 2002 (Details)
--------------------------------
A HUGE KENXTIONS PARTY ON APRIL 5TH!
--------------------------------
KenXtions will be hosting a huge singles party on Friday, April 5th. Don't
miss this wild event. Click on the link for details.
KenXtions Party - April 5th, 2002
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Cyzia:
I have been reading Clifford's list (and other resources like asf) for 2
years but it is the first time that I participate. Why? It's very simple:
during the first 1.5 years I read everything I could find on the net about
seduction, and asf/clifford really opened my eyes about the subject, I
realized why my love life was so disappointing and I started to get very
good about seduction, well... about the THEORY of seduction. I used to be
very shy and even if I was not so shy at the time I read all this stuff, I
was still paralyzed when I had to talk to a strange woman. I tried NLP,
patterns, visualization, auto-suggestions ... but I always had this
invisible barrier within me that prevented me from talking to a woman I was
attracted to. It was sooooo frustrating ...
Things started to change 6 months ago when I moved to another city. There,
thanks to PAIR (a lot of thanks to Formhandle for having set it up - see
www.fas.speed-seduction.com), I met another guy like me. We were afraid but we
were both very motivated to get over our inhibitions.
The first time we spent 3 hours in a shopping mall and made only one
approach each!
The second time I gave him 20 dollars and told him to give it back to me
only if I made 10 approaches in 1 hour. After 30 minutes, I had made 2
approaches! 10 minutes before the deadline I still had 4 to make. But I
really didn't want to lose face in front of my wing, nor did I want to lose
the 20 bucks! So I made the 4 remaining approaches just in time, actually I
even made an 11th approach just for the fun of it. Yes approaches were
beginning to be fun, incredible! Of course I got 0 phone numbers but I
overcame my fears and I was very proud for that. Now had I solved my
problem? Absolutely not!!!
The third time I made only 2 approaches in 2 hours with my
wing. Why? Again I was feeling desperate, I thought that I had won but it
was not the case. Now, 6 months later, I realized that I was very naive ...
it was impossible to re-program my brain in one hour after many, many years
of very bad habits and internal talk. So week after week we were getting
better and more at ease at Street PU's, but the progress was slow and not
constant.
It took me 23 approaches before I got my first phone number close. Then I
got one close after each 10 PU (on average) and now 1 out of 7. What are
your statistics in Street PU?
In February, we met 2 other guys (again thanks to PAIR) and we learnt from
each other and we all got a lot better. That's funny because I and my wing
only made approaches in the streets (we were afraid to try inside shops)
and the two other guys only made approaches in shops (they were afraid to
talk to women who were walking!). Now the four of us can PU almost anywhere.
It's just practice. The only way to get over the fear is to accept it and
do what I was afraid of anyway. But the problem is that I was too afraid to
act! The snake is biting his tail. The only solution is to find a wing (or,
even better, a 'coach') as motivated as you. Being two, you will feel a lot
stronger and you will overcome your fears because you do not want that your
wing to think that you are a coward, and when you see him make approaches
you will feel very bad if you do not do the same and soon the pain of not
approaching (and so showing your wing that you are just a pitiful coward)
will be stronger than the pain you link (in your mind) to being rejected.
Actually, it is not painful to be rejected if you have the good frame of
mind (her loss, not yours) and I don't even remember the hundred women who
'rejected' me. Moreover, what is funny but real is that you feel 10 times
better when you crash & burn than when you don't dare to approach. Actually
even when you crash and burn, you feel very proud because you are THE man,
unlike 99% of the guys you dared to take risks, you are the winner - you
are a real man, regardless of what her reaction is.
Another challenge was to be able to do Street PU alone (without a
wing). That's strange but even after more than 130 approaches with my
wing, I was still paralyzed at the idea of approaching women by myself.
Only recently I started to approach women alone as a part of doing things
in my daily life. Life is really getting exciting for me now, as everyday I
can meet new and wonderful people.
Now, after 6 months I have made 183 approaches (according to my diary) and
got 26 phone closes. My problem (and it is the same for my wings) is that 2
times out of 3 I will not be able to meet her again (too busy, doesn't
answer the phone, doesn't show up at the appointment ...).
I remember a couple of months ago I met a Miss Internet 2000, HB 9.5 and
great personality. After 5 minutes of talking in the street, I told her
that I accept that she treat me for a cup of coffee now. She smiled but
said that she had to finish her shopping before the shops close. I was
about to eject when she adds "but we can meet in one hour at Bar x", I was
dreaming - a Miss Internet (she also had a TV show) was asking me out! ...
but she never came to the date.
Last week, I meet in the street the daughter of the ambassador of an
African country, had good rapport, and we exchanged phone numbers. 2 hours
later she called me to check if she gave me the correct phone number and we
set a date for the day after. She never came, neither did she answer my calls.
Other times when I call the women I number closed, they say they are too
busy or other shit. I've never seen people on the list complaining about
this. Are we the only ones to get such problems in Street PU? What are the
solutions? What percentage out of the phone closes do you get the women to
meet you again?
One last question, how do you approach an HB who is walking in the street
with one or two girlfriends? I tried 10 times or so but never managed to
keep a discussion going.
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Halbster:
Parts of this message were cut and pasted from a private message I sent to
Ross.
A basic concept of Speed Seduction» ("SS") is YOU GO FIRST. This means you
access the states and feelings that you want to lead her to experience.
Many people on this list post about the different frames that they set for
women. How about the frames that you set for yourself?
One of the many frames that I find useful is a frame that "The World is My
Pleasure Playground to explore."
What does this mean?
It means that I approach the world with a sense of wonder, curiosity,
adventure, humor, discovery, and playfulness. It means that everything that
I encounter becomes a potential sensual tool or pleasure tool that I can
utilize. It also means that everyone can become my play mate.
This is a frame that is not only useful for seduction, but it is also a
great way to live life.
Below are some short stories that will help illustrate.
For example, yesterday I walked into a hypnosis seminar. Doug (my friend
and co-trainer) was sitting in a chair. I had three soft foam balls I like
to juggle in my pocket. I walked up behind Doug and just started rolling
them on his back. He lit up and said "That feels great. What is it?" I'm
constantly turning odd objects into massage instruments. Then I picked up a
rain stick, and that became both a massage tool and a hypnosis machine.
Note that I didn't have to do this with an HB. I make everyone feel good. I
knew Doug, had rapport, and was confident that this approach and touch
would be OK with him. I was also confident that nobody would mistake it for
being a gay thing. Instead, women got to watch and think I'd like some of
that as well.
Recently, I went to a Corning Outlet store with my girlfriend. Although she
loves these stores, it wasn't my first choice place to be. However, we
pulled in there to escape a snow storm, and I was stuck there. The store
was empty. While my girlfriend shopped, I wandered off looking for things
that could be fun sex toys (she immediately figured out what I was doing).
A sales woman approached me. I asked her if she could help me find things
that I could use for making music. Soon all the sales woman were having fun
running around the world shaking things, drumming utensils, and banging
pots. Then a MILF (Mom I'd Like to Fuck) walked in with a 3 year old
daughter. I turned to the little girl and said "My girlfriend says that
you're better behaved than I am. Is that true?" Instant new friend. People
in the store voted and she was better behaved. LOL.
If you can learn to move through the world like a child with a sense of
wonder, curiosity, playfulness, and adventure, turning things into toys the
way a child converts a box into a castle, then you can also convert prudes
into nudes.
Recently, I've been seeing a woman who I've had to work very slowly with. I
find that when I slow down she speeds up, but if I accelerate then she
slows down. She grew up in a very strict and religious home. I had the
sense that inside her there is a wonderful naughty girl waiting to play
with me. The last time I saw her I set a new frame. At the outset I asked
her "Could you feel comfortable with me turning you on today knowing that I
do not plan to have sex with you today? I got a smile and a yes. Are you
sure it will be OK if I really get your juices flowing because I'm gonna
get you wet...soaking wet?
I chose this frame because it did several things 1) It sent a message of
safety to her "we will not have sex", 2) It put me back in control, 3) It
not only gave me permission to turn her on, but it also made her a willing
and eager co-participant, 4) It created a sense of expectation for her, and
this confidence and suggestion in itself was a turn on, 5) It gave her
permission to get turned on, 6) It created a challenge for her, & 7) It set
a frame for our time together.
I kept my word and didn't have sex with her, but I had to promise that we'd
do it soon. LOL
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Mark B.:
>> Mark B.: I found women tend to prefer this level of implied interest
until they begin to talk about their sexuality and even then it's best to
hold back the explicit expression that you want to bone her until you are
sitting on her couch and are engaged in serious making out.
> NightLight9: Doesn't this contradict nearly every other post you've ever
made?
MB: Yes and no. I have taken on the attitude of a student of the process
and more of a scientist to see what works and what does not rather than
something of a guru that knows everything. This way I am able to learn and
grow and evaluate and re-evaluate what works and what does not and make
changes to my approach if I feel it's warranted. Now rather than going into
a situation where I say "O.K. my goal is to get her number, take her out
and bone her," I say to myself "my goal is to learn what it will take to
get her and try different things to see what works". This way if I do not
succeed at least I am able to learn and draw conclusions from my experience
and grow and not feel like I failed or lost an opportunity. So if I
succeed, I re-enforce my behaviour and if I "fail" I evaluate to see what I
could have done differently or better and in essence my failure is not a
failure but a success in terms of knowing better next time around.
>> MB: In fact how I got the numbers was with the line "You seem
interesting and I would like to know more about you. How about we have a
casual coffee next Friday where you can tell me more about yourself" -
implied interest kept very casual and it works more times than it does not.
> NightLight9:You really seem to be taking a completely different
tact. Anyway, I wasn't going to
post this to this list but here is something that happened to me that made
me think of you: So I pulled these two chicks after yoga last night.........
MB: Good going. What I did is started off with a clean slate recently. I
looked at myself and thought that I was not being totally honest with
myself about what I really thought I knew about women. I cleared myself of
my beliefs and went back to my roots. When I began dating and getting women
7 years ago, I was very casual and easy and got maybe 80% of the ones I
dated to fuck and had women ask me to be in a relationship with them. Then
as I got older and began reading advice of "experts" I began to go faster
and become more urgent about fucking women and about wanting relationships.
And although I got to sleep with women faster than before, my percentage
declined to about 40% of the women I dated. So although I got some faster I
lost more than my share. I decided to go back to my roots of being more
easy and casual with my RELATIONSHIP interest in them and mention fucking
still in a direct way but not right away without first establishing some
sort of connection or comfort level and only after I let her know that I
find her desirable and attractive. If she responds positively to my
expression of how I find her attractive then I know she is very likely to
be open to me when I tell her I would like to bone her. It may take a bit
longer now but I can get more of the women I want eventually this way. To
be honest with you my ability to get numbers and dates has increased
dramatically but more importantly my confidence has also increased. I no
longer feel like I have to do anything other than focus on the woman and
who she is and then mention my desire to fuck her only after we have
established a comfort level with each other. It has lifted huge pressure
off of me from worrying about all the things I need to do. This way for me
at least she does not think that her pussy is the only thing that I am
after and I can run more of a marathon than a sprint. It's sort of like
moving slower to go faster - paradoxical but seems true.
I noticed that women at the beginning tend to worry about what a man will
ask of her. They tend to worry what sort of an emotional commitment they
will have to make to him. I noticed that if I can somehow make it known to
her that I do not need her emotional support or a "deep relationship" right
away, then women tend to become freer and more willing to be with me. This
does not mean ignoring her but it means how much you ask of her to do for
you in terms of focusing on your needs rather than hers. In fact many, many
women have complained to me that men want their attention excessively and
act needy and insecure. Hence when I mention to them that I would like to
get to know them casually and learn more about them over a casual coffee,
they feel free that I am not looking for some sort of an emotional crutch
from them to lean on or a relationship. In fact, the last four or five
numbers I got, the women showed great enthusiasm about giving it out and
having me call them simply by suggesting a casual date. Paradoxically it
seems that women tend to be a lot more willing to get into a relationship
with a man when he makes it known that he is not necessarily looking for
one. This either fuels some sort of competitive flame in women or it
indicates to them that you will not suck all of her life-force out of her
through your need for attention. Hence she can feel like she can enjoy
being with you without having to give too much from herself.
I feel that it's important to let her know that you are secure with
yourself and will not ask her for something that she feels you should
already have - emotional strength and the ability to remain collected on
your own meaning that you are not looking for a relationship right away. I
feel that asking for one too soon gives off an aura of desperation and low
esteem as well. But asking for one after you have known her and been with
her for a while seems to indicate to her that you are able to see value
after appraising her for while. I found that when you can show this to her
she will feel free to give herself to you. But when a men tends to come on
too strong at the beginning at least her red light goes on and she thinks
"oh oh, this guy seems to want too much too soon and he does not even know
me and I do not want an emotional cripple to have to take care of."
So now this is what I do.
Express initial interest in her (you seem interesting or you look
interesting) but then quickly shift into being very casual in the first
conversation - talk about the context of where we are and then shift topic
to a discussion of her - let her talk about herself and ask her questions
and comment positively on what she said. The pick up is "I could not help
to notice you from there, you seem interesting and you give off a certain
energy that I picked up on" then yada yada about her. The I suggest "you
seem interesting and fun, I would like to learn more about you, say over a
casual coffee on Friday at 7:00". Then they either accept or suggest
another time or just give me their number and tell me to call them. Then I
emphasize that I am not looking for anything serious at the moment except
to get to know her and have some fun and see what happens. Then while with
her I tell her I find her desirable and attractive and this leads to the
topic of us boning each other where I can be direct with my desire for her.
As well, I have found that if I tell them there are others they do not seem
to mind. One girl invited me over to her place for dinner on our FIRST date
after I told her I am dating a lot, have many women on the go and am not
looking for anything serious right now.
If I see her somewhere and she becomes presumptuous about my interest or
tries to weasel out I tell her "I am not trying to pick you up or be your
boyfriend or anything. I just thought you seem interesting and I would like
to learn more about you over a casual coffee" This also works well to ease
their concern about you wanting to much too soon.
> Sharky Shark: I address this letter to Mark B just to unify some of the
stuff that I've been reading from this list and other sources but
especially on what Mark B has been contributing over the past few months.
Ever since I read your first article about how you discovered patterns and
their effectiveness I have looked out for your articles and watched as you
have experimented with different approaches and ideas.
MB: Yes, I feel that experimentation is key to find out what works and what
does not. I discovered this from bodybuilding and the Weider Instinctive
Training Principle when I was 14 where you just go by feel, pay attention
to yourself and do what you feel works and not do what does not work. I
have gotten the best results from this approach in the gym - 230 lbs at
5'11" with sharp abs and 400 pound bench press and 460 squats all drug free.
> Sharky Shark: I have observed as you've progressed from the use of
patterns to deliberate mismatching, to expression of opinions as a means of
suggesting, to complimenting in the right way, to being direct, to not
being direct, to being direct at the beginning of and end of an encounter,
to being indirect as in expressing casual curiosity and not showing direct
interest until the time is right. In gleaning from your contributions and
comparing them to the ideas of some of the gurus out there, this is a
unification I have come up with to summarize what your approach or a good
general approach might be:- 1.Don't appear too eager as borne out in casual
curiosity..neg in the extreme 2.Show independence and lack of eagerness by
deliberate mismatching or disagreement at appropriate moments. 3.Suggest
activities by expressing them in the form "I think you and I can/should/...
4.Show interest at beginning and end. Just by approaching is sign of
interest then at the end show interest after "casual" conversation 5.Know
how to use RJ patterns and NLP for effect at appropriate moments 6.Be
careful with compliments... 7.And of course the cardinal rule..Don't care
what she's thinking I wonder what you'll add or detract from the above and
what your current approach to the game is, at this moment.
MB: You have made a better summary of what I could put together. See post
above for details or feel free to ask. I feel the essence of it is that
it's considerate of me and her at the same time. The message it gives off
is "I am independent and secure in myself and do not need you but I would
like to enjoy you if that is fine with you."
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Dwacon (www.dwacon.com):
Saturday Nite in Dubya Country:
I went out with my new wing to check out one of the infamous Washington, DC
nightclubs. As usual, it was the typical crowd of stuck-up women who ignore
all the guys that hit on them and dance provocatively with themselves to
attract attention.
Well, we walked in and I wanted to start right away, so I sent my wing to
the bar to get drinks while I cased the place. A group of three HB.NINERS
and their 10 friend came in and the 10 and a 9 were dancing together in a
provocative manner. Well, the cutest 9 went to the bar and cut in front of
my wing... and he just stood there... well, we must train young grasshopper.
So the ten came over to check on the drinks and she was shaking her bon
bons... so when she walked by me I whispered in her ear, "Oh... I thought
you were coming over to dance with me."
She replied, "No, I was checking on my drink."
I answered, "You mean to tell me a drink is more important than I am?"
I asked her name. She said "Royce." I said, "Oh, like Rolls Royce? The
highest quality and the smoothest ride?"
So she turned and said, "That's so sweet." I kissed her hands and pulled
her to me. She put her arms around my shoulders and we did a little lambada
bump and grind. I think that she initially assumed that I would be another
AFC who would be intimidated by her aggressiveness... and maybe the
intensity was too much for her. She backed off by giving me one of those
Thurston and Lovey Howell pseudo-kisses on the cheek and grabbed her drink,
then she and her friends went up to the dance floor.
Well, we finally got our drinks and I noticed a couple chicks glancing at
us and dancing, but they didn't do much for me or for my wing so we ignored
them. Incidentally... later, as we were in the parking lot leaving, the
same two pulled up to us in their car and said, "We were watching you guys
all night. You two looked so good." I said, "Great... so are we going to
follow you home or will you follow to my place?" She laughed and said, "I'm
engaged... but I just want you guys to know you look so good." My wing
whispered to me, "She's shitfaced drunk" and I lost it... so they drove off.
Anyway... back at the club... we went up to the 2nd level where the dance
floor (and the massive six-foot tall speakers) are... and after scanning
the crowd we saw Royce and her gal pals. I danced over to her and she
rolled her eyes and said, "Sorry, I just want to dance with my friends, but
I'll see you around the club." I answered, "Well you know... an opportunity
as good as me won't be around for very long." She gave me the liquid
nitrogen so we exited stage right.
While polishing off our drinks I saw this cute shortie blowing off these
guys who were talking to her... then she started dancing by herself...
slowly backing towards me and was rubbing her nice dubble-bubble up against
me. I started rubbing back and, as my brain was being rattled by the
200-decibel speakers pounding on the upper deck of the club... and my
throat was killing me from having to yell to communicate... so I said, "You
know, if you keep rubbing against me like that, we'll have to get a room."
At that precise moment, the DJ cranked the volume up on the next song that
was full of teeth-rattling bass and nerve jangling treble.. and my ears
felt like they were about to explode. I thought I could close with
shortie... but my head was splitting so we went back downstairs to try the
crowd there. By this time, new blood had trickled in... mainly a repeat of
the deal with the earlier girls.
I saw this cute Asian HB.NINER and went over and said "zao xon hao" and she
said, "huh?" I told her I was speaking Mandarin. She said, "I'm not
Chinese, I'm Korean." So, I said... "ando seoh" which she understood and
complimented my knowledge of languages. I replied, "Baby, I try to use my
tongue as creatively as possible." This got a big smile but she said,
"Sorry, I'm taken." I tried David's line, "Well, if you were to suddenly
realize that I am better than him, you would go home with me tonight,
right?" She laughed and said, "M...maybe." So I played with her a bit but
no close.
We finally had enough of that so I took wingie to an all-night diner where
we found a cute but chunky waitress that I had fun sarging... then we were
kidding each other over who would take her home. "You take her." "No, you
take her." Well, my eagle eye noticed she had a tongue stud and I showed
grasshopper how to make her blush about five shades of red by asking her to
show us... then suggesting how she might use it.
A bit later, an HB8 who was dining with some guy was headed for the ladies
room and I stopped her and said, "How you doing?" to which she said,
"Fine." I said, "I can tell you're fine by looking at you, but why aren't
you with me?" She smiled ear to ear but nervously glanced over at her bf. I
sarged her a bit... but then our food arrived and all bets were off.
This Thursday we'll be in Georgetown with Juggler... and it will be a
take-no-prisoners evening.
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| cliff’s list advertisment section |
| Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are
just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links
to these emails. The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take
over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such
as proper mailing list software) for this list. If you were going to buy the product
anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going
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| cliff’s free plugs section |
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all
recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back
here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up —
from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of
weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):
|
INFORMATION ABOUT THIS NEWSLETTER ARCHIVE:
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maintained by "Clifford". Your comments are requested, encouraged, and
greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by
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