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I wasn’t getting any arousal out of this deal
12/20/02 4:46:00 PM Eastern Standard Time

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Cliff's List Website
http://www.cliffslist.com/

Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers, suggested
links and referrals to other seduction sites and explanations of what this list
is all about.  Seminar, workshop & conference schedules are on the website also,
as is a glossary of terms that may be used here that you may be unfamiliar with.

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26 (reposted from www.fastseduction.com with permission and revised by the
author.  Thanks to Style for pointing this one out):
I, twentysix, have f_closed a girl for the first time  eliminating my virgin
status (even though I didn’t blow my load).

I’ll start from the beginning.

============
SAT, DEC 7, 2002
============

Went out sarging in Toronto with Eddy, Tyler Durden, No9 and Kojak.
We went to this three-story house that had about 15 rooms, each with their own
individual bar.

It was pretty crazy. We pretty much sarged the whole place. If you were with a
new wing later in the night you had to warn each other about sets you previously
sarged.

On top of that, we were video taping some of our sarges. Fucking crazy. I
remember one time TD and I were sarging a four-set (3 girls/1 guy) and Kojak was
fucking standing right behind them blatantly taping the whole thing. Insane lol.

Overall, for the night, I am feeling out-of-state. I just wasn’t feeling it, and
it was reflecting in my sarges. I wasn’t doing as well as I normally do. Anyway,
that sort of thing happens from time to time.

We pretty much sarged the bar to pieces so we left and went to another club.

So, we get to the other place and we start the sarging all over again. I was
doing some video taping, so I wasn’t sarging for the first part.

After I finished taping TD sarge a large group, I put the video camera in my
pocket and looked for chicks to sarge (this place also had three levels).

I go to the second floor and find Kojak. Some girl was wearing his scarf and he
couldn’t find her. So, I’m talking to him about this and then HBWideFace walks
by me and gives me serious EC and says ‘Hi’. I rarely get opened by chicks, so I
said to her, ‘Hey have you seen this guys scarf?’  I just talked bullshit. I
knew it didn’t matter what I said by the look on her wide face.

Anyway, Kojak takes off and I start chatting this girl (she’s a 6).

(After scarf chat)
HBWideFace  You are very beautiful (spoken with a quarter Chinese/quarter
English/quarter rich Chinese/quarter Zsa Zsa Gabor accent)
26  Is that right? Thank you.
HBWideFace  So, when did you get here?

As you can see, the conversation was lame, but I knew it was on. I knew if I ran
my routines/games on her then I’d be going backwards in the sarge. The only
thing I used was the blond hair opener.
We talked about standard shit: work, what we did tonight, brief history of
ourselves, etc.

We move to a location that’s not as crowded (she requested the move).  So we’re
standing around chatting. Eddy, TD, No9 and Kojak are giving me social proof by
occasionally walking by and patting me on the shoulder…shit like that…it all
helps.

TD comes by and asks where the video camera is.  It was in my pocket, but I was
sarging HBWideFace. So, I slowly turn to the side and TD and I do a smooth
exchange to get the camera away from me  HBWideFace didn’t even notice.

HBWideFace  What are you looking for tonight?
26  (Thinking: Holy Shit  I think I’m gonna get laid).
26  I don’t know, what are you looking for?
HBWideFace  I am looking for excitement.
26 - Yeah, I’m looking for excitement too (spoken casually).
HBWideFace  Would you like to come with me and my friend?
26  Sure, just let me tell my friends that I’m leaving.
HBWideFace  Ok, I’ll be right over there.

I go looking for one of the guys…

26  Dude…it’s on, I think I’m gonna get laid.
No9  Go, go. Get out of here.

Ok, so I hook up with HBWideFace and her Serbian girlfriend.
We hold each other and walk to her car, which was about 15 minutes away.
I was pretty nervous about the whole thing. Then I calmed the fuck down.

What did we talk about on the way to her car?
Nothing much, just lame talk about how cold it was, what I do, and other general
chitchat. It was sooo implied that this was a ONS.

We get to her car and her friend says she wants pizza. Here’s what 26 was
thinking:
26  FUCK PIZZA YOU STUPID BITCH. I’M A VIRGIN AND I WANT TO GET LAID FUCKING
NOW. GO TAKE YOUR OWN CAR AND GET YOUR OWN FUCKING PIZZA.

Conveniently, HBWideFace forgets about pizza as she accidentally passes by the
store.

We drop her friend off and I move in to the front seat.
I’m looking at her mediocre body thinking, this is cool, I’m gonna get to touch
all of that shit.

Again, the conversation in the car wasn’t about sex. It was lame chitchat. When
I previously asked her what course she takes in school she said that she would
not tell me, ‘I’ll tell you later’. I asked her this about three times, each
time I asked her she got more and more frustrated with me. I didn’t care, it
fucking bugged me that this was the only thing she wouldn’t tell me.

She ends up telling me what she takes in school when we’re alone in her car. It
was some lamo general college course…it was a non-issue.

Then she tells me her ‘dream job’. I ask her about it, even though I didn’t give
a shit.
HBWideFace  I want to be a police officer.
26  (Thinking: You’d be the worse police officer on the planet. You’ll never be
a police officer).
26  Why don’t you pursue your dream?
HBWideFace  Blah Blah Blah, drivel drivel drivel, jibber jabber jibber jabber.

We get to her place. She lives in this big fucking condo/apartment with a
roommate. We got to the top of the building  she’s in the penthouse. We walk in
her room and it’s fucking big, she also has this big Trinitron TV in it.  She
tells me to choose some music, because she is going to the bathroom for a bit.
I put on some hip-hop channel since she said she liked that kind of stuff
earlier.

She comes out in her pajamas, I pin her to the ground and Bukake her! No
seriously…

She comes out in her pajamas and tells me I can go use the bathroom. I didn’t
need to, but I figured this is part of the whole ‘sex’ thing so I went. Remember
brothers, I am virgin at this point  I have no clue.
So I go to the bathroom and just kinda stand there. I didn’t wash my cock or
anything. The only thing I thought of doing was calling TD and the guys to tell
them that I was about to fuck her, but I thought that would be lame.

So, I’m thinking, should I walk out totally nude? Hmmmm… I decided to walk out
the same way I went in, which was wearing everything except for my dress shirt.
Imagine I walked out totally nude with a throbbing boner just pulsating in the
air?

I walk out and all the lights are off.
She’s lying on the bed.

I walk over to the bed and start making out with her. Kissed her neck, her
earlobes.
Then she takes my hand and puts it on her right boobie! So I start rubbing that,
while kissing her.
Then somehow I started rubbing her vahinia (over her pajamas)! She was moaning
and shit.
So, I took off my shirt and pants, but I left my underwear on.

I bet you fuckers didn’t think I’d be writing this much detail did you?

So, I’m kissing her and rubbing her poon down. This is pretty hard. I couldn’t
concentrate kissing her and rubbing her at the same time. I was doing my best
though.

She starts rubbing my cock, and it felt pretty cool. Lol.

HBWideFace  Fuck me 26.
26  Ok.

So I tore off my fucking underwear. I kneeled there on her bed with my rock-hard
boner, pulsating, throbbing  you know it.

HBWideFace  Put on a condom. I have one.
26  I have one of my own (I didn’t want to use hers. I would be freaked out
about it for some reason, like she would sabotage it or some shit).
HBWideFace  What brand?
26  Sheik.

Again, I am a virgin at this point and I don’t know how to properly put a condom
on.

26  Put the condom on, it turns me on.
HBWideFace  Ok.

She can’t get the condom on, so she goes to get hers.
As she goes and gets hers I end up getting my own on.

Then I fucked her!

I fucked her and fucked her and fucked her and fucked her and fucked her and
fucked her.

About 15 minutes in to the whole thing I was thinking ‘this fucking sucks. This
is fucking sex? I hate this. I want to leave.’ I legitimately wanted to leave.
I was thinking, ‘I busted my fucking balls for 5 months for this?’
I was sitting there pumping this girl missionary style for 15 minutes getting no
feeling.

She’s all moaning and shit and I’m just pumping away like a tool.

So, I decide to move her around and try some positions  just like in the porno
movies!

I had her on top. I always fantasized about this.
So, she’s on top of me and I’m thinking ‘Holy shit, this fucking hurts, my cock
is gonna fucking snap off.
After about two minutes I changed positions because it hurt so much.

I then got her in to doggy-style position. I thought this would be interesting.
So, I’ve got her from behind and I’m trying to find the slot, but I can’t.
I’m sitting there fishing around her ass and upper legs looking for the entry.

It was horrible, just like the sex. I couldn’t find the hole. She started to
whine because of the long delay. I was thinking? You’re whining? Calm it down
China  seriously. I wasn’t getting any arousal out of this deal.

I get it in for two strokes, then it pops out. Then she starts whining again.
So, I switch positions and for some reason I go to the her-on-top position
again. Dumb move 26. I feared my cock would break right the fuck off.

After about 4 minutes of that we went back to missionary and I slammed her hard.
Hey, she said she wanted it.
I was saying shit like:
‘You like that?’
’Say my name’
‘You like it hard?’

Keep in mind, I am bored out of my mind during this whole experience. I am
pretty disappointed. Lol.

After 30 minutes:
HBWideFace  Change your condom.
26  (Thinking: I guess this is something you do after a half-hour of sex. But
overall I was pissed that the sex wasn’t over).
So, I take my condom off and open up a new one.
HBWideFace  What are you doing?
26  I’m putting on another condom.
HBWideFace  Why?
26  I thought you said you wanted me to?
HBWideFace  No.

I didn’t care, I was happy with that.

So, then we just lied naked together and kissed a bit.
She wanted to cuddle. I didn’t really want to, but I did.

This was a mistake on my part. After sex I should have ripped my condom off, sat
on her bed and jerked off until completion. I should have wacked my load all
over the place, her face and the Trinitron TV set.

Here’s a problem I forgot to mention.
I’m kissing her throughout this whole extravaganza right. Now, we’re tonguing
and shit, she’s pretty much in control with the kissing. But what pissed me off
was every time I tried to initiate tongue she would block me with her stupid
teeth. This happened like five times. Once or twice she would giggle after she
did it.
Jesus Christ.

Ok, we’re done having sex now.

HBWideFace  Lie down and rest for 5 minutes then I will call a cab.
26  What? 5 minutes? Why are you trying to rush me out of here?
HBWideFace  No, I didn’t mean it like that. I just meant it good to rest after
relax for 5 minutes.
26  What’s with the 5 minutes of relaxing?
HBWideFace  No. I just mean to relax.

5 minutes later she’s calling a cab.
She’s on hold with the cab company and she starts getting all frustrated because
she’s on hold (annoying).

So I get ready to leave.

I chat her a bit more. And she comments that I have so much energy. She said she
noticed that in the club too  that I had lots of energy. She liked it.

HBWideFace  What are you going to do now? (It was 3:30 AM)
26  I’m going to another club and hook up with my friends (I got even more
energetic. I jumped around).
HBWideFace  You are going out to another bar? (Disappointed that I was still
interested in sarging).

Now, the guys weren’t going to another bar. However, I know that there are
several places open ‘till 6AM in the city, so I just played her like they were
there and I was gonna meet them.
Previously in a convo with her I told her that I chat loads of people when I go
out (which is true).

She totally didn’t like how I said I was going out to another club. And I really
wasn’t. I just lied to her. I did it because I was pissed that she was basically
getting rid of me quickly. Overall, I WANTED to leave her place immediately…I
just wanted to leave on my terms.

So, the cab calls up and I leave her place. We kissed about three times before
my exit.
I didn’t get her number because I didn’t want it.
1. I didn’t want to fuck her again.
2. It was obvious that this was a ONS.

Just to be on the safe side I made sure I wrote down her exact address when I
left her apartment.
Just in case I forgot shit there, etc. I would rather have it than not have it.

So that’s it. I stuck my junk in a chick. I lost my virginity. The sex was
horrible. I felt a bit dirty and used after the act.
Overall, I don’t feel any different compared to when I was a virgin.

However, I believe this will help me subconsciously in my sarges. I mean, I’ve
had sex now, I know this. So from here on in any girl I chat I’ll be even more
like ‘who gives a fuck, I don’t NEED what you got.’

*The sarge went down from about 2:00 AM ‘till 3:30 AM

Give me your comments/criticism.

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Dwacon (Give the gift of Kama Sutra for Christmas http://tinyurl.com/395w):
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handling for a 30 day supply of this life changing supplement.
http://www.sweetrelease.com/

Dwacon (Multiple Orgasms R Us...http://tinyurl.com/2k8r): I tried a similar
product called Semenex but broke up with the gf before I had a chance to test
how it worked. Note that these products are not recommended for diabetics or
hypoglycemics. Caveat Emptor!
Well, I went out to another of those young professional dinners last night and
this one was interesting. Basically, you fill out a sheet about your personality
and they match you up with a table full of “your type” (or so the idea goes).
While I’m filling mine out, this blonde HB8 (in soft lighting -- but she had a
clingy dress and a tight bod) looks at my form... I accuse her of “cheating
after me” and then tell her it’s okay... but I will have to see her after class.
I consider sarging her but figure I’d go inside and get the lay of the land (pun
intended) first.
I go inside and see a HB7 in line to buy drinks. She is chatting with another
chick and I walk between them and say, “Which one of you are buying?” They
ignore me. So I continue... dropping with more humor. Finally the other girl
walks away and I hold the 7’s attention long enough for her to get her glass of
wine and she bails to find her friend.
[]STRIKE
I go inside to mingle and see a cute HB9 who is dressed ultra conservatively...
but I notice her forearms are a bit hairy and that is typically a sign of high
sex drive.
So I sit down to talk to her and do what I thought was an accurate cold reading,
but then she begins to put up resistance... she goes totally opposite of
everything I say.
We verbally parry and thrust for a while and finally I figure I’ll try Brother
Soul’s pattern... I ask her favorite flower. She doesn’t like flowers. What do
you like? Nothing.
I figure maybe I’ll try some lines from “The Sexual Key” as a last resort but I
blank out trying to remember how it goes (that always happens!!!) but it doesn’t
seem worth it anyway, so I tell her I need to go and freshen my drink... she
looks down at my full glass... and I bail.
[]STRIKE
I try again with another HB9. This one has a friend (an Indian woman, an 8½) and
I manage to get an instant connection with the two of them. The Indian chick
says she can’t hear what I’m saying (I sat closer to the 9) so I do imitation
sign language and the 9 is loving it. I keep her laughing as I run pattern after
pattern... then some dude sits down to talk with the other girl... an unwitting
wing who helps me avoid potential CB’ing... and I continue through to a
number/email close.
[]HOME RUN
I get up to walk around and I realize she and her girlfriend are watching... so
I chat with my buddy who is hosting the event so she doesn't see me working the
room. Later, she says she doesn’t feel well (she was coughing a lot) and is
leaving, so I’m free and clear (and have her number).
Later, we are assigned to our tables and wouldn’t you know it, I get seated at
the FOOBAR (beyond ALL recognition) table. The only available seat is between
two UGs... one fat, one thin. The fat one is showing tons of cleavage so we
chat. I try cold reading and pick up resistance upon resistance... and realize
she is taking cues from this other chick at the table and I realize it is the
pair who iced me at the bar.
Even worse, everyone at the table is an M.D. and they start talking medical
crap. My stomach is twirling...
The chick who copied off my paper is across the table talking to this guy who
works for some company called “Geeks R Us” or something like that... she is
bored silly. We find out his sister (who looks like a porn star) is at the next
table... and she comes over to talk to him and pulls him away, so there is my
chance to try and sarge the bored one... but when I speak to her she’s looking
as if she is strapped in the electric chair and I’m leaning against the
switch... so I just bail.
I later found out she said she felt uncomfortable because the chubby girl and I
were making innuendoes. D-OHH !!!
[]STRIKE
I consider bailing but my buddy is at the door (he knows I have a very short
attention span for bullshit) and encourages me to stay and meet and greet at
some of the other tables.
I go over to the “Christian family values” table and it is like the Russian
Czar’s family dinner or something. The chick who neg’ed me out was at that
table... and not talking with anyone... but I ignore her and focus on this
skinny gawky blonde... but she’s kinda cute, not a dog or anything... kind’a
like a cross between Ally McBeal and Cyndi Lauper. She could stand to lose the
librarian glasses and plaid skirt, though.
So I go over and say, “Can I have some of your righteousness... I’m a sinner.”
She laughs and says she isn’t so righteous herself... and apparently she is
bored with the AFCs at her table. I do a little kibitzing and I get her number
and e-mail. She then bails for her apartment complex party.
[]HOME RUN
I go over to the “extrovert” table and find that it is a bunch of folks sitting
and staring... no one talking or anything. Hoo hah! I crack a couple jokes and
it is like Mount Olympus or something. I began to think that they screwed up
when assigning personality types to these tables. Too late for a refund... plus
I already gobbled my London Broil.
Anyway, there are two really cute HB9 brunettes there but they are also giving
me the “Please don’t come over here” look. Screw them.
This classy redhead comes by... looking like Lacey from the Caddy Shack
movies... real classy... dressed like a debutante at a cotillion. So I just give
her Ross Jeffries Chapter Ten and she takes some crazy kino and her girlfriend
actually leaves the two of us alone (the anti-cock-block).
So this guy from her table is listening in. He looks like a muscular Richard
Jeni and has the same sense of humor as Rich. He starts joking “Wow... I gotta
steal your lines” and pretends to write down everything I say... everyone is
laughing.
So... I give her Brother Soul’s pattern and she literally lays her head on my
chest and wraps her arms around me. I do a number close and ask her about lunch
next week. She says, lunch is difficult... we’ll have to make it dinner.
[][][]HOME RUN [][][]
knocked it out of the park
Dinner is over and I’m thinking of bailing but I return to my table to devour my
dessert. In my absence, the nerds had migrated over there and the doctors are
exchanging e-mail with them. Lah dee...
I gaze across the room and see this HB11... no, HB15! She is cute, short, tight
body... long black hair... looks Mediterranean or maybe Latina. Two perfect
bazooms with cleavage for days. Two AFCs are trying to talk to her (mainly
staring down into her open blouse top) and I rush over and start in on her with
all the macking that mack daddy can mack.
Now boys... here is the goofy part...
She tells me that she is there to give “moral support” to her girlfriend and not
to meet anyone.
Her girlfriend returns... she is a bit of a traffic wreck but she has a phat
ass... like a Sir Mix A Lot ass... like she has more junk in her trunk than Fred
Sanford has in his junkyard (and looked like the junkyard dog was back there as
well) and long curly hair to her waist... and her tits are sticking out even
more exposed than her “moral support.”
You can tell she is out to attract a guy. Must be rutting season.
So, anyway... I’m like, “Don’t worry about your friend (the AFCs are drooling
over her tits) let the two of us talk.” Still, she insists that she can’t
because she is only there to support her friend. Horse hockey.
Obviously, her friend (as hard as she is trying) will prolly go home alone...
and she wanted to be a good friend and go home alone with her.
Wimmin.
So, I go for the jugular. I hit her with every pattern in the book and she is at
the brink of tears, “I can’t... I’m only here to support my friend, but if we
see each other at the next event...” so I do Brother Soul on her and she tells
me I’m making her feel bad because she can’t...
[][][]STEEEEE-RIKE !!!! [][][]
On the bright side... if I do see her at another event... them panties is coming
off.
Overall, not the worst night... but I tell you guys... I have GOT to get a wing
for these events...
If any of you guys in DC/MD/VA want to hit one of these cracked-brain parties,
send me an e-mail!
Anyway...
On the way out the door... the redhead gives me a couple more hugs... as I leave
her friend comments to her, “you found a good one.” Wonder if that is a good or
a bad thing?

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Hypno Bill (originally posted on SS list, reposted here by the author):
Twas the season and the strip clubs were bare

First thing.  What are other guys out there planning to get their special
targets for Christmas?  Any original ideas for festive presents that say more
than the average box of chocs?

Second Thing here is a crosspost from the speed-seduction list:
No Strip Bars in my part of the world so I cannot verify any of this info but I
know from previous reading that there are plenty of listers interested in
strippers.   Still, having recently downloaded and watched Uncensored Springer
from Kazaa, I really cannot understand why ;-)   Anyway, each to his own.

The holidays are upon us and once again attendance at ye local strip club is
down.

What does this mean to us?

It means more time to talk with the girls. That is a good thing, is it not?

First things first. In order to enjoy your time with the ladies here are some
ways of beating the odds. Do not get dances, Do not buy drinks, Do not pay for
their time. Do not lie to them - tell them you don't do dances. None of this
maybe later I'll get a dance. This will assure that the girls you are talking to
are not interested in squeezing a dance out of you. Sure this eliminates half of
them right away. But hey you still have a number of other girls who will sit and
visit with you. Be supportive, when they tell you they need to go make money.
Tell them you want them to make money and when they are ready for a break come
back and visit.
The clubs are great places where you can get bigger balls with the ladies. It is
easier to touch them, or even reach out take their hand and hold it. From there
you can do palmistry or just talk to them. Treat them like people, which they
are and you will do better. Find out about them, ask them questions to open them
up. Most will share with you, very few will stop at anything personal. Based
upon my experience in So. Cal. It may be different in different places. There
are different types of clubs. Some clubs where the girls  hustle drinks. The
club I go to, the house shares in the girls' dance money. Some clubs the girls
pay to be there and keep all the money.

Now is the time to take advantage of the shortage of customers. While talking to
them you can innocently anchor them to good feelings. Just elicit some good
feelings. You can talk about what they really like or how wonderful the feeling
of love is, etc..... For best anchoring observe them and when they light up say
the feeling and touch them. Touch them in a way that is easy for you to repeat.
The arms are good for this. And as you are talking with them you can touch them
again and they will feel those great feelings instantly again. They will cum to
understand that you are a really great guy to hang out with. You are not
pressuring them at all, just hanging out. As you get better you can go for
sexual feelings and use that as well.
Some girls may drop clues that they are available for you. Be alert to what they
are saying in the subtext. Look for signs that they want to take it further.
Have a stock outing that you can invite them to. Which means decide before you
go in to the club, what to do and when to do.

Just hanging out with hot looking women barely dressed is a great boost in
pickup balls that can benefit many guys. Even in the non strip club arena.   If
you are getting started in meeting women this is great way of building the skill
of interacting with women. So when you do hit the streets, malls, etc. You will
be in familiar territory (with women) and radiate comfort and confidence with
women. This will put you ahead of all the other guys out there. In in the
competition for women, this means getting a bigger share of the ladies for
yourself.

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slideshow bob:
> Michele: I am not very confident even have an inferiority complex but have
been always very choosy about men. I have never managed to attract the really
'hot' men and am really attracted to good looking men though only being of
average looks myself. I know there are men who are not particularly good looking
who attract beautiful women but could it be the case the other way
round? As from what people tell me, men go for looks a lot more than women so it
might be a lot harder for a woman of average looks to attract a good looking man
than vice versa. I would be interested in comments from both male and female
subscribers.

slideshow bob: You do NOT have to be good-looking to be a girl player.. I know
this for sure, as one of the best players I have ever known is female. She gets
most of the guys she wants, excepting some guys that understand her game and see
where she's coming from. And the funny thing is, she's not even averagely
attractive. Her face resembles a dog's and her body is like a Russian
babooshka's. Don't worry about it, just get your game in order and you can do
it.. And you might try to be interesting/different in some way, for instance she
works in a famous radio station here..
ps. oh yeah... she got me too, but only after 4 months of playing and drowning
me in alcohol ; ) (she was good fuck tho':p)

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aa aa:
New Year's Eve is coming up and I'd like to plan ahead. I only began SS this
year so I've never faced the problem of New Year's Eve while dating more than
one woman. What would be the best excuse to tell the other women that I will not
be able to spend New Year's Eve with them? Yes, I know the best PUA would have
already established that I am seeing other women, but I am talking about those
who believe that we are exclusive. I could do the alpha-male thing and just tell
them I will be with someone else, in which case they will either be hurt and
start to withdraw or this will bring out the competitive nature in them.
However, I would like to avoid any unnecessary drama. I'm sure there are many
others on this list who will face the same problem and I'd like to get some
ideas.

Cliff's Comment:  I don't believe in lying to women - so if they believe you are
exclusive, you have been deceiving them.  If you hadn't been lying to them, you
wouldn't be asking your question.

aa aa:  Some random thoughts today. First, the street PU seems to be my best
opportunity. I used to think that the street PU was the most difficult to do.
Now I see it as the easiest because no one is expecting to be approached during
their daily routines. I work downtown and I see so many cute women with their
heads turned down walking through their boring little workday. It's my job to
brighten up their uneventful little day with an approach.
Second, when it becomes obvious that the target will not be available because
she has a boyfriend and the BF-Destroyer is not working, and when I feel she's
been overall friendly and positive to my approach, I have been saying this as a
last ditch effort: "Just so it's not a total loss, do you have any cute and
single friends who are available?" If she says yes to this, the end result would
be that you get a contact and you can covertly seduce her while being introduced
to her friends. I have not done many of these yet, but this is a win-win
situation in my view. If she says no, it was already a loss.
Third, a slight neg I've been using is: "Just out of curiousity, am I too young
for you?" This came about because I cannot tell how old people are sometimes.
Women who I thought were 28-30 turned out to be 22, and women who I thought were
22 turned out to be 28-30.
Fourth, I am really starting to have fun now. Approaching is no longer something
I fear doing. I crave it like a natural high. When I go too long without an
approach, I get antsy and I need that rush again. As I get more confident, I am
beginning to witness, first hand, the concepts of group-theory now. My main
target remains to be 1:1, but I am slowly encountering groupsets of 2. I will
work my way up to larger groupset in the future. For now, group-theory is
opening up whole new opportunities. For example, approaching one right in front
of her friends and having her friends feel jealous that they were not the ones
who were approached. That sense of competition and need for attention kicks in.
And lastly, it's Christmas and I recently gave my lunch-"date" a candy-cane to
suck on (no pun intended, I really do mean the red-and-white candy cane).

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Stephane:
Commenting on Michele:"I have never managed to attract the really 'hot' men and
am really attracted to good looking men though only being of average looks
myself."

Stephane:  Here is my very blunt response:
Learn how to deep throat. I'm almost always willing to overlook the way a woman
looks if she knows how to please. Study pornstars like Jenna Jameson and Heather
Brooke. When you can do what they do you, you will be in complete control over
good-looking men. Trust me -- we really ARE pigs.

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HouseOFire:
>MB: For the longest time I had been under an impression that one needs to be in
a relationship of some sort in order to have sex with a woman. My experience
this year especially has indicated that this is not the case at all as women
seem just as eager if not more so to fuck without the underlying guise of a
relationship.

HouseOFire:  This was a great post and is entirely consistent with some of my
own recent experiences. I fully get what you're saying about being casual at
first, but letting her know early on that you want to fuck her.
I would like to draw you out more about handling women who just want to have
sex. Two questions in particular:
1) What are the pitfalls in dealing with a woman who just wants a sexual
partner? This question relates to why they don't want to have a relationship. I
would expect such a woman would be quickly turned off by any show of emotional
dependence, for example, complaining when she's not available, asking too many
questions about where she is when you're not around, or calling too often. What
other things do you need to avoid?
2) Do you make love to these women any differently from the way you make love to
women you're having relationships with? Are some displays of affection out of
place, e.g., too much kissing, too much gentle caressing?
>Michele: I am not very confident even have an inferiority complex but have been
always very choosy about men. I have never managed to attract the really 'hot'
men and am really attracted to good looking men though only being of average
looks myself. I know there are men who are not particularly good looking who
attract beautiful women but could it be the case the other way round? As from
what people tell me, men go for looks a lot more than women so it might be a lot
harder for a woman of average looks to attract a good looking man than vice
versa. I would be interested in comments from both male and female subscribers.

HouseOFire:  There is no question in my mind that you can have success with very
attractive men by applying the same principles discussed here. There are many
attractive men who have few women, or no women, in their lives and would jump at
any decent proposal.  Certainly, you will have an easier time of it if you
improve your looks to the extent you can. Losing extra weight, dressing
attractively, and judiciously using make-up all help.
I think it will be easiest for you (in one sense) if you target men who are
uncomfortable approaching and talking to women. These men are all over the
place. You will have to be aggressive and learn not to take rejection
personally. While this may be difficult at first, if you go through the process,
you will likely get some good results, which will build your confidence, which
will lead to more successes and more confidence in a wonderful cyclic process.
You will need to lead these men very directly. "It would be really nice if we
went for coffee", "You know, if you really wanted, you could kiss me right now."
"Let's not go to the movies, let's go somewhere where we can talk and get to
know each other better." "Why don't we go back to your place for a night cap?"
"If you don't start kissing me soon, I'm going to think you don't like me."
Assume they want you, but can't believe you want them sexually. You will be
surprised how often this is true and how stubbornly blind some men can be to the
obvious.
If you find out for sure that one doesn't want you, say next!, and find another.
I expect that in the end you will find that confidence is the key, just as it is
for men. Fake the confidence until it comes to you.

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Throughfare:
A woman I have gotten to know & had started to sarge turned out to be a great
person, but appears to me to have some fairly difficult things in her
background. We had great rapport, in fact she was so interested in me I wasn’t
actually having to do any work sarging, but she has LSE issues, and as things
started to heat up I figured I had better back away.
That’s fine, I have a personal policy of not getting involved with LSE women and
I just let the sarge go, but I also am in a situation where I need to work on a
project with this gal, and one aspect of this, a strange anchor she has, is
affecting her ability to get along & perform.
I’m slowly getting acquainted with NLP & field testing the concepts. I know this
is an anchor and I’d like to explore just what’s going on - there might be
something valuable to know here.
She has an incredibly strong anchor on the back of her upper arm to something
that must be pretty extreme.  When you touch the triceps area on the back of her
arm she recoils and actually shudders. She has on occasion been on the verge of
being hostile or hitting out, before she catches herself and realizes what’s
happening. It’s an incredibly powerful response. She’s not the kind of person
who wants to act that way, and from the questions I asked she doesn’t seem to be
too clear on why this happens, I don’t think she knows anything about NLP
concepts such as anchoring.
Most people are gregarious, especially me, and you’d be surprised how often
people touch each other on the back of the arm, even non-kinesthetic people.
With this gal you get a reminder every time you do it, kind of like operant
aversion treatment - and one challenge I’m facing is I think it’s starting to
inhibit my natural tendency to kino all the time and is not good for my sarging
habits.
I haven't tried to pry details about her life history out of her, don't think it
would be appropriate yet.
Could readers refer me to resources about removing anchors? I would like to see
whether anything can be done about this sort of thing, whether overtly with the
subject’s cooperation, or covertly.

Also:
>Michelle: I know there are men who are not particularly good looking who
attract beautiful women but could it be the case the other way round?

Throughfare:  I've been having trouble finding resources that deal with removing
anchors. All the NLP resources I've looked at only talk about applying them. Do
any of the NLP experts reading this know of a good place to start? I'm dealing
with a woman who has an extremely negative response anchored to being touched in
a certain spot on her upper body.

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Ricky Ricardo:
> Rod Munch: Here's a question for Ricky Ricardo or others. First off, I will
say that nightclubs are probably my weakest territory for picking up women. I've
always seemed to do better in one-on-one...let's get to know each other type
situations. However, some of the things I do in clubs are similar to what Ricky
advises...that is, having mad-crazy fun and just going out there and having a
blast, dancing like an idiot...being happy and smiling all the time. It's not
uncommon for a girl or two to wander up to me and start dancing with me or
whatever. However, I find that after they come up and start dancing with me,
they wander off after a minute or two. I can't help but think in their minds the
women are making themselves available to me, giving me the opportunity to take
some sort of action, then when I don't do it, they say, "Well, this guy's just
here to have fun, he's not interested in me; I'll move along now." So my
question is, once you get a gal dancing with you or grinding on you or whatever,
how does one effect the TRANSITION to move from just dancing to escalate the
process? I know this is a basic question, and probably has a simple answer, but
I'd like to see a variety of responses nonetheless.

Ricky Ricardo:  You ask a very good question. Well, first let me say I too
experienced the same thing at first (I don't thing it's a basic question.) That
is, women come up to dance then leave. However, before I say anything further,
let me say, be very careful of how you are presenting yourself. That is, in your
statement above you said, "dancing like an idiot..." Now I am sure you did not
mean it that way, but what I am trying to say is you have to make it easy for
women to dance with you. For instance, this Friday I was bartending, the dance
floor was packed. This guy was having that "crazy-fun," at the edge of the dance
floor, but his legs were flying all over. Several women attempted to dance with
him, but left after about a minute. My conclusion is that it was near impossible
for those women to dance with him (although it was funny as hell to watch him.)
Now having said all that, I used to get that a lot.  Girls would walk away after
a while. The solution? Well I am not exactly sure, but reread Ross's comment to
me in the last news letter. Similarly, I have been told the following by about
five or six young ladies who have since became close friends of mine. They have
continually complained that when I am dancing with them or any other woman in
the club I am not paying attention to them. They stated that I am always looking
away or over their shoulders, not into their eyes, like they want me to.
Also, I have been told the following by this other guy who has at least one "sex
close" at the club each week. He told me that the reason why I am not having
more "sex closes" is that he notices that I am not speaking with the young
ladies that I am dancing with on the dance floor. He suggested that I start the
conversation (like he does) on the dance floor then suggested taking a seat off
the dance floor to continue talking.
Nevertheless, as I said in my case (which I am now trying to change) it appears
I am more interested in not leaving the club without making out with at least
three young ladies. Hence, in many cases I am the one who is generally moving or
pulling another young lady to dance. I do that even if I am dancing with the
hottest woman in the club at the moment. However, as I said that does not seem
to be a good thing.
So finally, I would suggest that you start paying attention to the woman you are
dancing with. In fact, I remember one girl slapping me across the face as she
shouted, "look, what is your fucking problem?  You are not paying attention to
me, I am fucking hotter than all these bitches in here...look at these, feel
them [grabbing her own breast], no other girl in here has such fucking great
breasts." I remember just pulling another girl to me without missing a beat. She
was still mad as hell so she grabbed me again.
Eventually, I introduced her to one of the bouncers who was not working that
night.
So, while I do not know your specific situation I suggest:
1. you pay closer attention to the girl you are dancing with
2. Speak with her on the dance floor
3. Reread Ross's last comment to me...

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Mark B.:
Try this one on for size. Since about July I had been talking to a dancer from
one of local watering strip bars. Our conversations have been nothing other than
"hi how are you and how is work going?" But really they have not been
conversations at all rather one sided monologues with me trying to get her to
talk, all to no avail. I even asked her to come out to which she said maybe when
she is not busy. Then back near the end of October one of my ex gf came back and
wanted closure to our relationship. Feeling somewhat upset over this I went in
to the bar and saw my dancer friend and without really caring about the
impression I made I told her how my former gf came came back and now wanted to
end things for good. I told the dancer about what we did in our relationship,
how I treat a woman and what I look for in a woman. I said I look for emotional
balance, intelligence, integrity, does not get upset over small things and likes
to go out and have lots of fun among other things including the extent of her
sexuality. When I finished she got up and left and came back a few minutes
later. She then offered me her number and told me to call her so that we could
get together for dinner. I left and over the next two weeks I called her three
times, leaving a message the first time and not the last two. No call back. Then
two weeks later I see her again at the same bar. She runs up to me and says
"Mark, why have you not called me? I have been waiting for your call". I told
her I called her three times. She then took my number and said she wanted to see
me the next day. I did and we had a blast while out together. She is of Latin
American decent with a large D cup and a hot smoking body and so far she has
been everything I described to her I wanted and was looking for in a woman and
more including her sexuality. Even while out together she continually proceeded
to ask me what I looked for and wanted in a woman and somehow I found her
adjusting her behaviour to be what I said I wanted. I even told her I have a
Playstation 1 and I enjoy video games to which she replies she was going to get
me the PS 2 for Christmas with a bunch of games. I sometimes sit back and think
how could it be so easy after getting nowhere with her for so long?
I was truly dumbfounded by this set of circumstances. I realized that telling
her what I wanted in a woman made her see I was not going to settle for any
scrap and it made me look more appealing in her eyes as a man. I feel that too
often we as men try to be what women want us to be and try to adapt as they keep
changing the fucking rules, literally the rules for fucking. Ever wonder why we
find women who set standards and rules much more appealing even though they may
not look as hot and attractive as others who do not, and even chance the ones
who suggest they are not looking for a relationship more than the ones who seem
open to us?
I realized that telling her how I am with a woman and what I want somehow
conveys that I have to it together and I know what I want and this makes myself
more attractive in terms of my attitude. I am curious to know whether anyone
else has ever told a woman what they want from women in general and what they
look for. It would be interesting to know. So far I have told another 3 women
what I want from women in a general sense to receive curiosity as to whether or
not they somehow could fit the bill. On some level it challenges a woman to rise
to a higher level and be more than she is on her own with a man who knows what
he wants out of life. I feel this could be one of the final missing pieces in my
quest for mastery over the softer sex.

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Prem:
You know, as I improve my own game, and as I meet all these guys who are
incredibly successful with women, I find that they all have such different ways
of looking at things! Yet they are extremely successful! This is mind boggling.

Take for example, Steve & Mark, as opposed to David X.

Now David says: "all I need is a piece of ass, what else could I want from a
woman? All I care about is getting laid. I have a structure where I collect
information which I use to manipulate them, and I make them feel good with my
charm, you gotta have rules and a structure."  Yet yesterday Steve and Mark were
saying that we should get to know women as equal human beings and be totally and
completely interested in their personality and their passions. Steve and Mark
say that we must absolutely drop all the games and manipulations. Drop the idea
of sex from your mind and first concentrate on getting to know the person, after
which you can follow up with showing sexual desire for her.

Cliff, you know these guys a lot better than I do. Obviously, they are all
successful with women and they seem to live a happy life and their women seem to
be happy too! What do you make of all this?

David said that if he sees a woman with attractive tits, he will stare at it
right in front of her without apology. Now Steve mentioned yesterday, that he
thinks that guys who stare at body parts of women are total assholes! And Steve
mentioned that you must pay attention to the person, not the physical features.

For me, both approaches have worked, but they have been very hit and miss. The
direct (David style) approach has worked more often for me than the indirect
one. But, sooner or later I have to decide which way I want to deal with women
and stick to one way. This is my dilemma and I'm sure that you have thought
about this issue as well. These guys seem to have wildly opposite techniques as
well as philosophies! The one commonality seems to be that they are all 100%
comfortable being who they are and saying/doing whatever the fuck they want to
say or do. And of course, they all live in their own world, follow their inner
voice and everyone else is just a guest in their reality.

I would really like to hear your insights into this.

Cliff's Comments:  I think that there are a couple of things going on here. Most
important is that all these guys who are really successful live in their own
worlds and women are drawn in by how interesting and different this is. They are
all highly aware of what is going on and women respond to the challenge of such
sharp minded men who are paying attention to them.

David talks very rough with the guys but the truth is that he is very charming
and polite with women, while still being strong. I think he likes being a "man's
man" with the guys but when you actually see him interact with women he's
nowhere near as crude.

In terms of using direct or indirect methods, for me it almost never works when
I am indirect so that is my preference. However, I do think that you sometimes
need to be in tune with the specific situation and do what is appropriate. Women
will pick up your masculinity (think of David doing something indirect - do you
think that a woman will not get the message even though it may be indirect?) if
you are congruent about everything else and what you say will take on less
importance.

It comes back in a lot of ways to finding what works for you and not basing
everything on what someone else is doing. Underlying David's rules and what Mark
& Steve were saying is the same thing - a more insightful understanding of the
cliche "be yourself."

Prem: Yes, that is what I sensed too.  I feel that the key to reaching a level
of success that these super macks have is to stop looking elsewhere for answers
or "techniques" but to key into myself, listen to my intuition, refine my own
skills and allow the best parts of my personality to blossom. In other words,
the lesson I have learned is: Get in touch with MY inner voice. Be Strong,
Comfortable and Congruent in MY world, everyone is just a guest in MY reality. I
think the same thing applies to being and feeling powerful.

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