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She meant that she did not want anyone, including me
6/11/02 5:30:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time
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Cliff's List Website:
http://www.cliffslist.com/
Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers,
suggested links and referrals to other seduction sites and explanations of
what this list is all about. Seminar, workshop & conference schedules are
on the website also, as is a glossary of terms that may be used here that
you may be unfamilar with.
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Ross:
I've seen some interesting theories being offered by some "gurus" on the
topic of women being genetically programmed to want to mate with
aggressive, "Alpha-males". I've always considered this "she's programmed in
her genes" stuff to be crappy science at best, and I am surprised at how
some guys are offering this as gospel.
In fact, the recent science on the mating habits of primates has quite
opposite conclusions. To wit: The June 2002 issue of Scientific American
has a VERY interesting article on orangutans and the evolutionary mating
strategy of subordinate males.
Now, as a side-light, the article states that subordinate male orangs
resolve their need to mate by RAPING females, but that is not the most
interesting aspect of the article.
The article, in a sub-section called Evolutionary Strategies, discusses the
entire Alpha-male mating strategy issue and pretty much blows it to hell;
the notion that the Alphas only have access to the choice females and that
the females are genetically driven to mate with the strongest, most
aggressive males is very rarely true in social primates.
In fact, so called "low ranking males" have developed very successful
mating strategies.
Here are some selected quotes:
"the seemingly logical strategy-developing powerful muscles and dramatic
secondary-sex characteristics to excel at male-male competition-has some
serious drawbacks. In many species, maintaining those secondary
characteristics requires elevated testosterone levels, which have a variety
of adverse effects on health. The aggression that comes with such a
strategy is not great for health either."
"Furthermore, increased body mass means greater metabolic demands and more
pressure for successful food acquisition. During famines, the bigger
primates are less likely to survive. And the development of secondary sex
characteristics makes a male more conspicuous, both to predators and to
other males that view these characteristics as a challenge."
HERE IS THE REALLY FASCINATING FINDING:
"the low-profile of these animals may actually give them a competitive
advantage when it comes to reproduction. In many primate species, the
low-ranking males are actually doing a fair share of the mating. Genetic
paternity testing of these primates has shown that the subordinate males
are quite successful in passing on their genes"
"Why are these low-ranking males taking part in so many matings? In some
primate species, such as the savanna baboon, the females can decide with
whom they will mate, and they frequently choose males who exhibit strong
male-female affiliation and parental behavior rather than male-male
competition. Even when dominant male baboons stand guard to prevent
low-ranking males from mating, the females often initiate surreptitious
matings-sometimes referred to as "stolen-copulations"-with the
subordinates. For low-ranking male baboons, the strategy of pursuing
affiliative "friendships" with females is a viable one because it avoids
the metabolic costs, injuries and stress of male-male competition."
Now, here is my point: be careful when people ascribe science to pet
theories that purport to tell you how a huge chunk of the population is
going to respond, BASED ON THEIR "GENETIC" PROGRAMMING.
I think MANY women in our western culture DO respond to aggressive,
confident men, but I don't think this is a genetic thing; I think it is
linked to the social images that women are presented as to what "manly"
behavior is.
In other cultures, such as the Tahitian, women are just as likely to be the
sexual aggressors, and in fact, sex is considered something natural,
without guilt, and to be openly and freely exchanged and enjoyed.
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Dr Alex Bender (aka Poetdude):
Lately I've been thinking about how a lot of guys go about handling their
romantic lives, and how it all relates to my studies in Eastern philosophy
- especially to my favorite book, the Tao Te Ching, by Lao Tse. See, here
in Boston, I've got a lot of buddies who are great guys - smart, young,
good-looking, educated, nice jobs, funny. It looks like they've got it all
together. And yet, so many of them cannot get it together when it comes to
women. It seems that they spend their lives in one of two states: being
alone (and getting to know Rosey and her five sisters really well), or
engaging in a 'relationship by accident'. You know what I'm talking about -
somewhere there is a random collision, usually alcohol-enhanced, and two
people end up spending more and more time together, until they are 'going
out', whatever that means. People often perpetuate these relationships
longer than they should, often going as far as moving in with or marrying
said random collider.
I've been thinking this is not entirely healthy behavior. Let me give you
an analogy. Let's say you go grocery shopping, and I say that instead of
going and browsing the cereal section, I'm going to blindfold you, and you
have to settle for the first cereal that you stumble onto. Would you settle
for that? What if I told you that you could only have cereal if one of the
boxes happened to fall off the shelf and into your arms, and you weren't
allowed to reach for one at all? Would you be OK with that? And yet, a lot
of guys out there are doing exactly that when it comes to dealing with
women - going at it blind, waiting for accident to bring them something.
My point is that a lot of men (and women) out there are settling for what
they can get, vs. going for what they want. To take the cereal analogy a
bit further: you wouldn't just settle for any random cereal when you know
you have choices and can afford any kind that you want. Bringing it back to
the context of relationships, three things are operating to deprive people
of their fulfillment: they don't know what they want; they bring a scarcity
mentality to the interaction - an imagined lack of choice; and they don't
think they can get what they want. The Tao Te Ching has a lot to say about
that, so I decided to write up my thoughts.
I won't claim much originality - human history has been long enough to come
up with most of these ideas beforehand. However, in terms of simplicity,
ease of applicability and contemporaneity of this material, it's pretty
darn good. It's an amalgam of an eclectic education in psychology,
psychiatry, anthropology, the sciences, hypnotherapy, NLP, literature, and
close observation of human nature. It's also a record of my journey from
being a frustrated Nice Guy to being a much more fulfilled, balanced Good
Guy. Some of my friends got results within 24 hours of my presenting this
material to them. I call it The Tao of Dating: How to be a good man and get
the fulfillment you deserve. May you also find it useful.
First off, let's figure out what you really want out of a relationship (and
by 'relationship', I mean any kind of interaction with someone, all the way
from one-night stand to married with 2.3 kids in Burbville). Do you want
something long-term and stable with someone you like? Or do you prefer RLDs
(relationships of limited duration)? Are you looking to get laid a lot, and
have hot, unbridled sex with as many women as possible? Whatever results
you are looking for are OK - I just want you to be honest with yourself as
to what those results are. Now a lot of people are looking for the magic
phrase or gimmick or pattern to get the results, to get them success.
Occasionally you will succeed like that, in the same manner that a novice
marksman can occasionally hit the bulls eye by indiscriminately strafing
the target. But I am here to tell you that success - of the reproducible,
long-term kind - is not a gimmick, nor is it a sporadic occurrence. It is a
habit. As Lao Tse would say it, it's a way of being, not a way of becoming
(the theme of being vs becoming will recur - look out for it). Good results
flow from right behaviors. Right behaviors flow from right attitudes. Right
attitudes flow from right beliefs. And beliefs are the core of who you are.
Get the right beliefs, and the rest will follow naturally and effortlessly.
Are you with me here?
Another way of expressing this concept comes out of neurolinguistic
programming (NLP). Let's say you want to be rich. Most people think that
the way to be rich is by having lots of money, and so they go seeking the
signs of wealth ('becoming'). NLP says that the proper sequence for
achievement is Be-Do-Have: first, you must think like a rich person, and
have those core beliefs operating at the depths of who you are (BE); then
you will behave like a rich person (DO); and finally, that naturally allows
you to come into possession of the outward signs of wealth (HAVE). In the
dating arena, an example would be that you would be the super mack daddy,
then behave like one, then have all the women you could possibly handle.
Got it? Good.
I'm starting to feel my tendinitis acting up, but before I sign off, I'd
like to share with you Chapter 36 of the Tao Te Ching, as translated by
Stephen Mitchell. It's a great translation, and I urge all of you who
haven't yet read this book to get your own copy today. It changed my life,
and perhaps it can change yours, too. A lot of the concepts and techniques
I will go over come directly from this little bit of concentrated wisdom:
"If you want to shrink something, you must first allow it to expand. If you
want to get rid of something, you must first allow it to flourish. If you
want to take something, you must first allow it to be given. This is called
the subtle perception of the way things are. The soft overcomes the hard.
The slow overcomes the fast. Let your workings remain a mystery. Just show
people the results."
Next time: more on how all of this relates to romantic success; being like
water; manhood in America; Nice Guys vs Good Guys; dating as a martial art.
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Mark B.:
> GameMaster: "I've been giving this a lot of thought lately. It seems the
women I've always been most attracted too had a major aspect in Virgo -- my
mom is a Virgo. Scary ain't it?"
MB: Interesting. My mother's name is Janina. My two long term relationships
were with women named Jolanta and Jasmine. I cheated on my first LTR gf
with a Gina that ended the relationship right before I ended up with Jasmine.
Within the last year out of the women I dated and slept with well over 50%
had names beginning either with J or G. Some of the names were several
Jackies and Janes, Jennifer, Janette, Julie, Greta, Gemma, Gina, another
Jasmine, Jennisha, Jacinth and then the usual collection of Lisa's,
Natalies, Raquel's, Tina's, Sharon's and Andreas. But statistically
speaking the odds are too high to simply consider the high number of women
that entered into my life with names beginning with J or G to be simply
chance. There has to be some sort of maternal connection.
I have come to a point in life where it no longer satisfies me to simply
meet a girl fuck her and then move on. I have come to a state where I want
her to be a decent person as well as able to enhance me in some other way
than just sexually. If she is not able to do so I move on without fucking
her. This for me is a higher level of living that gives me more
satisfaction than just fucking and leaving her.
Armed with facial hair, that no one has really commented on here yet, I
have been getting more success with more women than ever before. A few days
ago I was having a drink at the House of Lancaster by my house in Toronto.
I am sitting there and a stripper comes up to me and starts pulling me up
to go to the VIP. I refuse of course. We talk about relationships and I
tell her how selective I am about the women I date. She then asks me if I
like black girls and I say that it depends on who she is as a person rather
than colour.
She then says she sucks a mean cock and asks me whether I would like to eat
her pussy and fuck her. I say that I would have to get to know her better
before I make that decision. She then hesitantly asks for my number and
asks if she can take me out next Saturday. I agree and to which she says
she would like to see me earlier than that in the week. I refuse as I work
and go to the gym during the week and do not have time for women until the
weekend. She stayed with me for 1.5 hours I bought her no drinks and did
not give her a dime and would not leave me until I left the bar. I played
it cool and did not come on strong but simply allowed her to talk most of
the time, gave her my view and opinions and views on life even if counter
to hers and engaged her in meaningful conversation.
Actual two pickup stories.
I park my car on side street and walk over to the meter to get my ticket.
At the meter I see a BHB9 (black) with the tightest ass you have ever seen.
I walk up to her and ask her for change for a $5. She sees me, looks
startled and runs off. I mimic her startled reaction and start laughing.
She crosses the street and begins walking. I also cross the street and our
paths converge. She speaks first and apologizes for running off and not
having any change. We chat for a bit and I tease her about reacting the way
she did. We get to the end of the street and I ask her where she is going.
She says she is going to the Zanzibar where she works to meet some friends
for drinks. I tell her I will go back to see here there when I have time.
She says I should make sure I do, we exchange names, shake hands and part
ways.
I am driving and see a BHB8.5 sitting at a bus stop bench. I wave at her
and she waves back. I drive around a gas station to get another look at her
and wave again. She waves back and smiles. I come around to her side and
stop the car and ask her to come for coffee with me. She says she is
waiting to go to work and cannot but offers me her number first and tells
me to call her so that we can get together for a drink later in the week. I
punch in her number and call her right away to make sure it's real. It is
and I drive off. 3 minutes - number and a tentative date.
The less I try and better I do. "Hello, how are you doing" following by a
slight smile eye contact and allowing them to talk. The simpler the better.
Cliff's Comment: There's not much here in terms of technique, strategy or
tactics. In fact, and it seems even more so given your comment about
facial hair, it appears that your looks are the only hook you are using
other than having had the initiative to start something up. I think a good
barometer of whether something one does is worth learning from is if we
think it would work regardless of what we looked like - is it your charm,
your intelligence, your wit that got her interested? There is a value to
simply taking action but I can assure you there are a lot of guys out there
who will tell you that that is a hit or miss strategy for most of them.
(new thread)
Mark B.: Last night I was walking out of a shopping mall and saw a great
looking HB walk out of the mall while I was walking out with some friends.
I said "hi" to her and she said "hi" back. I said "where are you going" she
said "home, ALONE" to which I said that a woman like her should not have to
go home alone. I followed her to her car, but kept my distance and engaged
her in conservation. We talked for about 45 MINUTES about relationships,
her travels, women and other stuff. Got her business card and a promise of
a future get together. She said she is jaded with regard to men since many
of her relationships did not work out. She also asked me why I do not have
a gf and that I must have many many women on the go as I am "too good to be
true and too charming". I laughed at this but kept her engaged in
conversation. She seemed to enjoy herself and postured her body for my
attention.
Cliff's Comment: The key to this story was when you stood up to her BS with
that "home ALONE" comment. By not backing down and giving her a firm, solid
response you showed her you are the kind of man they are all looking for.
Mark B.: I actually thought that when she said ALONE it was more of a
complaint about being alone and wanting company rather than ALONE meaning
she does not want to have me come with her. This was a great lesson in
interpreting what she said in my favour rather than taking it as a blow
off. But more importantly, the lesson was more in terms of actually
ignoring her rejection
or her objection and driving forward assuming that she likes me and wants
me. I actually thought she was inviting me in rather than telling me to
buzz off with her comments which kept me in there. Lesson - do not
acknowledge rejection or objections and drive forward assuming they want
you. I guess it makes them think that their rejection or objection to you
has no value or meaning.
Cliff's Comment: This is the difference between something written and
something that you experience yourself. The way I read what you wrote, you
not only got that comment but there seemed to be a distance between you and
her as you continued the conversation. As it went on, it seemed that she
warmed up. But the point is the same - just keep going!
Mark B.: It's funny because I had an intuition to keep my distance and
later she told me she does not like it when people intrude on her personal
space before she feels comfortable with someone and I was right on reading
her non verbal clues. Later she did indeed tell me what when she said
ALONE she meant that she did not want anyone, including me, with her but as
I continued talking to her she warmed up and felt comfortable and secure.
She postured herself for me and allowed me to rub her hand. I teased her a
bit and used the cocky/funny approach. But I think the key was the "hi" and
then letting her respond while just gently persisting with her while
respecting her space. This whole notion about letting her respond and
giving her space is a large key to success as it indicated non verbally
that I want her to "perform" for me while I enjoy the show so to speak. It
seems that women so desperately want a man who will enjoy them non-verbally
by facing them, smiling and watching them that when a male can do this he
can have virtually any woman he wants. The key though is to overcome our
internal fear of looking like a pervert if we look at her for an extended
period or looking a stalker if we watch them. But it seems this is what
they want followed by a simple hello from us and allowing them to take over
from there.
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Proteus:
> GameMaster: How to fuck a Virgo..... they are so predictable.
Proteus: This whole strategy completely goes against the SS model, and for
that matter, the principles of NLP from which the SS/NLS models
developed. I'm not saying this strategy won't work. ANY small-chunked,
overgeneralized strategy, when applied to approximately 1/12 of all women,
will work some of the time. Sales is always a numbers game. Any approach
will hit eventually, somewhere on the bell curve. And other approaches hit
A LOT MORE.
I can personally guarantee that a strategy which replaces sight-unseen
generalizations with actual calibration and utilization of criteria will
consistently get you better results with any woman you talk to. And...
it's easier! You don't have to read an astrology book and then figure out
how to apply it to the person in front of you: all you have to read are the
expressions and postures you can see in the person right in front of you as
they change in response to what you say and do.
If you're totally hell bent on using 'magic' in seduction, check out how
Mystery does it (albeit I'm only familiar with what's online, haven't met
him in person yet). He uses it in one way to frame the calibrations and
patterning he wants to do. Same thing with the grapho-deck and all the
other gimmicks guys have used since the beginning of time. It's all just a
way to create rapport so you can move on to creating fuck-me states.
Hell, I've told a professional astrologer friend of mine point blank that
astrology is a total crock of shit, and she still wanted me to bang her,
despite how smitten she supposedly was for her bf. So "knowing" astrology
is totally necessary to get rapport with astro-chicks. Because when you go
for those deeper levels of rapport, those surface things just don't matter
in the slightest.
On a TOTALLY unrelated note, I have found the TV show "Elimidate" a fun way
to get ideas about dates (once you've decided a woman is good enough in bed
to deserve one); it's also a fun way to see how violation of the various
seduction principles plays out - especially Mystery's group theories, since
it's always 3guys/1girl or 3girls/1guy. Not sure if it plays outside the
L.A. area.
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TRESWWW:
> Joy_Stick: I'm curious if you have any insights on how to get women to
dance. I know asking doesn't work (though I'm at a loss to understanding
why). I've tried Toecutter's brushing up against her with pecks
(pickupguide.com),» but with little success. Are there any other methods
that you use/know of?
TRESWWW: When you see two girls dancing together, go there, put your hands
palms up opened at the size of your shoulders (as you'll receive something
from them), look at one girl's eyes, then to the other one's eyes (they
will laugh then) and you take the hand of the one who is DDB (or laughing).
It's important: -how you put your hands, because you are giving them the
option to choose which one WILL dance with you. This way the "Question of:
will she or not" is not there anymore.
-You have to FEEL the music, this way the music is more important to you
than the girl (Your attitude is to DANCE, because you really enjoy the
music, not because you want to pick her up)
Troubleshooting for the excuses:
She says: - I have this in my hand (tell her to put it somewhere else)
-I'm with my friend (have your wing near to get the other one once you
opened the 2set)
-I don't know how to dance (I do, I'll teach you)
Your attitude here is there is not reason to not to dance, because dance is
fun, you are having fun and she is having fun, dancing with you will be
MORE fun, so it's stupid to refuse the dance and she doesn't want to refuse
the dance).
Think when you offer something to eat to somebody, and he says: NO but then
you say again: Really!! and they take it? Ok, here is exactly the same thing.
You are offering to eat (dancing) they say no, and you spoon feed them by
taking their hands.
Other stuff that worked pretty well for me is opening a group (talking),
then going to dance with them (5-10 minutes) then open with a girl around,
dance with her, then another, go back to the first group, then to the 2nd
girl, then the 3rd, then you'll see around the girls which ones are
interested in you. You can go there, dance and close pretty soon.
PS: My wing Skyrazer is pretty good on the dance floor, so I'll tell him to
post something else.
TRESWWW (Swiss Team): > Lorenzo: Could a brother direct me to other
foreign language SS resources on the Internet? Audio recordings would be best.
TRESWWW: I'm from Argentina, so if you need patterns or advice... here I
am French/Spanish. tre***w@ya***.com[ ? ] But I think your mother tongue is
French, isn't it? I live in Switzerland now, so I would like to contact
you. Maybe we can get in touch.
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Maximillian Hell:
> Lorenzo (new RAFC): As for me, I don't know much Italian (only four
memorized seduction phrases an Italian PUA taught me in Paris ;-),
Maximillian Hell: Come estai Lorenzo! I am going to Italy in the
fall--could you perhaps divulge those four seduction phrases? I understand
that many Italians are PUAs, so I hope to learn a lot when I am there.
> Lorenzo: Could a brother direct me to other foreign language SS
resources on the Internet? Audio recordings would be best.
Maximillian Hell: On a related note, there are a number of books on "Street
Spanish," etc., but some have gotten bad reader reviews on Barnes and Noble
and Amazon for inaccuracies and regional specificity. There is a series of
little spoof phrase books titled, "Rude French," "Rude German," etc. Each
has a pick-up section, meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but the lines are
possibly usable.
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The Asiatic:
Often times in a hot party setting where there are 20 HB's and you're
talking to one that doesn't quite grab you but you think maybe there is
some potential there, but you wanna talk to others and see if there is a
better match for you, what do you do in THAT situation? I hate to #/kiss
close in front of other chicks because when they see that, and then
approach them, then they label you a PUA. Plus if you get her #/kiss close
and she sees you sarging others then SHE labels you a PUA.
In a room with corners, etc. this is no problem, but in a square room with
no corners, you are seen by everyone... so any suggestions for effective
procedure/ attitude to convey?
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Prophet's Update:
I'm busy learning my patterns in Spanish, here in Mexico. I started out
reading them to every girl I met (and in school). I also tried some of the
closers that were listed here a while ago (one student with a poor sense of
humour complained to the boss about sexual molestation because of that
closer! Oops!). Now I can almost say my five favourite patterns in Spanish.
I'm almost in the game again! I shared my patterns with one of my
students. He scored right away with a woman he likes so much they are
planning to get married in a year and a half! You can imagine the sense of
satisfaction I feel when I see him smiling and confident (because of me!)
I have been working on a really nice sexy young 21 year old this week. I
sat down on a bus behind her, tapped her on the shoulder and opened with
"shining example" and a piece of "eyes". That was enough to get her phone
number. We met the next day for lunch where I laid "incredible connection",
"eyes" and "find your desire" and "natural woman" patterns on her. She's
giving me resistance, though. I think I need to try the "little girl" on
her to convince her I'm the one that's worthy. I didn't see her today.
Instead, I went to a political luncheon, and sat across from a 7 reporter.
She asked me a bunch of questions, fluff, then I said the "eyes". She
turned red and got cheered by her colleagues. I told her my name was Sting.
She stood up to answer her phone. I noticed she had a nice trim bod, so I
got her number. I'm starting to feel at home here. Even my guitar is
getting better! Everything is looking positive! My fortunes have changed so
much since I moved from LDS to PUA.
Well, I guess I don't need to be surprised considering the scriptures say
the word is God.
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Dan:
I'm looking at Ross's last post here:
> Ross: Ha ha ha....you know, we had some outrageous phone sex where she
admitted that her bed was soaking wet. Here is the text of the IM session I
had with her: Yesterday, while on AOL, this chick IM'ed. Here is the log of
the chat, only the names and phone numbers edited to protect the guilty!
Dan: And I am just struck by how blatant and dirty the talk is on this. My
question is, do you first test to see if the girl can handle that type of
sex talk (if so, how?), or do you just throw that shit around to every girl
you talk to and follow up where it sticks?
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