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For anal thoroughness’ sake
3/22/01 1:26:19 PM Eastern Standard Time
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Montreal readers of these emails, please email me. I am keeping a separate
list of Montrealers who get this and will advise of events that may be of
interest. It has been suggested (similarly to a group that does this I
believe in California -- I am pretty sure that some of the guys who are in
that group are on the mailing list here so if any of you read this your
suggestions would be appreciated) that we organize a regular "skills
builder" evening where a group of us help each other with tactics,
strategies, patterns, techniques, etc. Let me know your thoughts on this.
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Here's a pretty interesting website, worth a look:
http://www.hensnightout.com/
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GameMaster:
Hey yo, ever heard of this guy? Dr Earl Partlow.
http://www.hypno.speed-seduction.com/what_learn.htm
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Jason would like to hear from people with like minded interests in the UK.
Contact him at jas***m@us***.com[ ? ]
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Halbster:
> GameMaster: So Mystery is a prettyboy? I fukin' knew it. I want more
advice
> from old ugly guys like me ; ))~
Whether or not he is a pretty boy doesn't matter so long as the methodology
he is using is applicable for you. Usually, it takes more than merely being
a prettyboy to seduce a woman. Being a prettyboy primarily helps with step
#1 -- Get their attention. Once you have your foot in the door you still
need to be able to perform. Remember beauty is common and women know there
are other pretty boys. Plus, being a prettyboy can help him get lots of
experience which he can then use to be a better seducer.
> Those other elements do NOT include groups, however. SS is for 1:1. MM
> is for 1:5 ... BECAUSE ... 10's are usually already surrounded by people.
> It's rare to find a 10 all alone. And, while you MAY find them alone,
what
> about all the other situs where they are NOT alone? I guess that's my
point
> for the day. We mustn't be afraid of approaching a target just cause she
> MAY be sitting with her BF.
SS certainly includes groups, i.e. RJ's acting gay routine.
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Ross:
>Most of Mystery's routines are actually storytelling intended to install
>emotional states. SOUND FAMILIAR?
Then he's doing SS, just another brand name and a different flavor, but it's
STILL SS. But I don't think that is all he is doing......
>2) To give her that feeling like you are accustomed to being around
>attractive women, and that you see her as a girl, not as a goddess. So she
>knows you are on her level and not groveling at her feet.
YOU SEE HER AS A GIRL, NOT A GODDESS. YOU SEE HER AS A GIRL, NOT A GODDESS.
YOU SEE HER AS A GIRL, NOT A GODDESS.
Repeat 5,000,000 times.
>3) To create a challenge for her and bait her to pursue you.
>If you REALLY THINK ABOUT IT, Negs are a powerful tool, to be used >in a
targeted fashion, and they really are directly in line with basic SS
>philosophy. I am sick and tired of seeing people misinterpret the
>technique. ESPECIALLY PEOPLE ON THE SS LIST.
Hey, don't blame the SS list; negs are off topic and we discourage off-topic
stuff because...well..it's off topic!
>Here are some example Negs:
>"You've got some lipstick on your tooth."
>"Oh that's so cute...your nose wiggles a bit when you talk! :-) Say
>something...there it goes again :-)"
>"You know I really like you but I probably wouldn't take it any further,
>you're too much of a nice girl for me :-)"
How about this one? "You know, if I didn't think you were such a white-bread
kinda girl, I'd totally be pursuing you!"
>Those other elements do NOT include groups, however. SS is for 1:1. MM
>is for 1:5 ... BECAUSE ... 10's are usually already surrounded by people.
>It's rare to find a 10 all alone.
Ok..Got it. Now I DO get it. Good distinction and Mys has a strong, VALID
point. So by displaying the talkative, entertaining, somewhat flamboyant
"host" "grand master of ceremonies" persona you:
1. Establish you are a socially approved person, and thus worthy of her
interest.
2. Get immediate attention from the group or part of the group so you can
get the interest and attention of OTHER hot women on the perimeter
3. Display a FRIENDLY confidence (versus nasty or arrogant...you are a
SOCIALLY FRIENDLY ALPHA).
>Once you engage her attention through being the grand-host/mc rather than
>the guy hitting on her, you further display your fascinating lifestyle by
>telling stories that lead her imagination, along with getting "kino",
>demonstrating you are comfortable around hotties by "negging" etc. etc.
I get it. Why didn't you just SAY so? Lay out the algorithm....
My dispute was with the "waiting for her to show signs of interest"....but I
understand the context, and it was about getting PHYSICAL. Gotcha! good
stuff. When are you cumming to LA?
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No9:
>Ross
> That last part is key for YOU; I've talked to guys who have met Mys
> and he's a very good looking guy. So he can afford a more passive
> approach because, RIGHT OUT OF THE CHUTE HIS LOOKS ARE GOING TO GENERATE
> SOME INTEREST.
> Mys, where would you be without your looks? A person who's met you
> describes you as "gorgeous" and no, he isn't gay. So, can we really
> accept that what you say is going to work when it does NOT rely on
> languaging to get past looks, as SS does?
Hmmnn .. Myst is good-looking and dresses well, but is skinny like a twig, a
little geeky, has a huge schnoz, wears glasses, his skin-complexion is not
the best, and he is weak like a girly-mon. I think Leo Dicaprio could kick
his
girly-ass. Plus, he has this gastro-intestinal problem and can't control
his flatulence, to the point where .. ookay, that is just way too much
information (haaa!) Not your prototypical gorgeous stud .. but he gets by
on
social-proof.
Many years ago when we were sitting in some buddies basement .. rolling
dice, and saying, "You can't cast magic missile! You don't have it readied
yet!" ...the ladies weren't exactly throwing themselves at us back then,
you
know?!
Seriously, if he relied on looks alone, he'd be where *he used to be* ..
cradling his drink in some dark corner, staring at the girls, and wondering
why he wasn't getting any.
I don't get the passive comment .. in the last 6 months, I only remember he
got approached twice, out of a few hundred sets, and both were UGs. I'd say
that doesn't qualify as 'passive' .. and he talks .. ALOT. He handles about
90% of the direction and verbal exchange. I would say his story-telling
skills are very good, but one of his best skills is getting into state
quickly. He can
go from "my life sucks" to ENTHUSIASTIC in a heartbeat. That is a really
understated ability. And the trigger is always some girl ...
>Lovedrop responds:
>I absolutely have to respond here because I believe that Neg theory is the
>single most misinterpreted technique there is. Most everyone have
>misconceptions about what Negs are and how they work, and people make
>judgments based on their misconceptions. I'd like to clear this up, once
>and for all.
Lovedrop, you took the words out of my mouth. Negs are not malicious,
you're not putting down the girl, you're teasing her (pull my finger!)
Yeah there a few harsher Negs, and some women respond to the verbal slap ...
avoid them .. just follow the basic rule of "keep it fun and playful" and
you can't go wrong.
>Have you guys ever seriously gone up against a REAL 10? You actually
>think a 10 will ALLOW you to 'help her discover, appreciate, and savor
>the power they never knew they had?" SERIOUSLY?
It's the isolation of your target, and consistently demonstrating enough for
her to be intrigued and want to talk to you.
And yes, you can sneak under the radar, because it's not just avoiding
talking sexually to her - it's because you're not talking *to her* at all -
you are
addressing and intriguing the entire group. You want to get to the point
where she is eager to speak to you.
Think about it - you are some random guy .. who is she going to be more
interested in? The guy who approaches her initially with fluff talk, or the
guy who entertains her friends, makes them laugh and enjoy themselves, and
then turns to her and says, "Hey, I've been wanting to talk to you ... let
me get
your opinion on something .."
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Adam:
>Mystery: Remember that a 10 is not
>only a hottie but has some social quality ... like Winona Rider. She
>is a 10. Maybe not because of looks but because of social status."
Winona Ryder went to my high school before I attended. She was actually a
very shy girl and was an outcast - the type that dresses all weird and sits
in the back of the class all quiet. I guess she came a long way since then!
Kind of like Mystery did in reference to his PU arts, and a lot of us have a
long road ahead, but success will be ours!
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Dwayne:
More on the scenario from the gym... went today to work out, surprised to
see Robyn at the desk. I went straight to the locker room without
acknowledging that I noticed her. When I came out, the other two girls at
the desk were looking at me with these big grins. Robyn approached me all
friendly like and said, "I tried to send you an email to cancel our
appointment, but it didn't go through." Actually, she sent me three... one
on three consecutive days... dunno why she thought they didn't go through.
I wasn't sure what to say/do so I just shrugged and went to work out.
Strange happenings...
My Comment:
Very interesting. Firstly, I think she said what she did about the emails
just as an excuse to talk to you. Seems to be more to the story here than
meets the eye. I think you made a good move to just leave her alone, but
the next step
(turning this into a success story) is something I am not sure how you
should go about. Suggestions?
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Tristan:
about negs.
This debate is strange. I don't see why so many people find it hard to
understand how easily these could work. It's OBVIOUS that they have to be
done with the right playful attitude. To clarify, let me recount two
brilliant anecdotes from the one and only Major Mark.
One day, he was sitting in a restaurant that was so full there was a long
lineup to get in. He looks up and sees the actor Jimmy Smits (from NYPD
Blue) standing in the line. He tells the waiter to call him over. Smits
walks over, the Major says 'Listen I'll let you share my table under one
condition.' The guy is very puzzled. Major continues 'that you don't talk to
me'.
'What????' says the actor.
'It's just that, don't take this personally but I have alot of work to do
while I eat. But like I said, please feel free to have a seat'
Of course they ended up having a great conversation. Before I point out what
it is about this exchange that is so powerful (though you can already
figure this out!) let me tell you the next one which is even better.
The Major is sitting in a bar, in walks Charlie Sheen with a bunch of guys.
Charlie sits at a table and starts drinking and being the typical center of
attraction as he is use to. Suddenly, he looks up at the Major and says 'Why
are you staring at me?'
'Weren't you in one of my seminars?' answers the Major without missing a
beat...
'What????????' (same answer as the other guy, did you notice?). Don't you
know who I am????'
'I'm sorry I have a lot of students and I sometimes forget names. But I do
think I remember you from one of my seminars.'
Charlie Sheen motions Mark over and says to his buddies 'get a load of this
guy, he has no clue who I am!!' And from then on they had a great time all
of them together!
While these are not technically neg hits, they are EXACTLY what Mystery is
talking about when he says that if you treat these people like the gods they
often think they are, or at least the way all the other morons out there do,
then you STAND NO CHANCE whatsoever of getting in under their radar. How
well do you think the Major would have done if he had approached them with a
compliment, or even worse, a request for an autograph...
food for thought...
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Casey:
Many Thanks to everyone, especially Ross and Mystery for fantastic
guidance! In the last 3 years since I first visited.speed-seduction.com» and
attended Ross's seminar in Palo Alto ('97), my life has definitely
improved. As my skills and successes have increased however, I've
discovered that I have a particular area in need of improvement. I
seldom call a woman's bullshit correctly or on time! I have plenty of
experience now and know that if a single respect-building opportunity is
missed, particularly early-on, then the game is off!
This ("Can Mr. Nice enter the body...?") came out a while back, but
I've been pondering a few short references that appear here. I've taken so
much from you guys, I think that my deficiency may be a way to give back.
Ross, in particular, perhaps you can expand and develop the bullshit
detection and calling aspect of SS. Because, it isn't really that I can't
CALL a woman's BS, but more that I fail to DETECT it at THAT CRITICAL MOMENT
that she introduces it. Maybe we could develop and affirmation for BS
Detection . . .
Ross says below that many frustrated, angry men fail with women because
they fail easily anticipated tests. This is what I'm talking about. Could
we elaborate here? I've been practicing seduction theory for 3 years, but
don't assume too much . . . I seem to be falling at the first step .
Also, Many Thanks to Mystery for Neg-Hit Theory, I use it regularly
(not on One-Eyed Hags!!! Hahahahaha!) I'm very interested in your
comments on challenging, and am looking forward to learning more about your
thoughts and experience on exactly how to PRESENT and FRAME the CHALLENGE.
Please elaborate . . .
> ... if she TESTS you, don't jump through her HOOP (HOOP THEORY). Simply
> call her on it and/or construct your own HOOP.
Please elaborate on HOOP THEORY!!!
> Structure challenges? Yes ... a NEG WILL do that. She will feel that you
> don't like her as much as all the other guys so will try harder to make
you
Please elaborate on structuring Challenges!!!
> Mystery: Very interesting OPENER concept. I'm curious as to the various
> reactions you've gotten in the field. Can you give some scenarios (and
not
> just the good ones but the bad ones too).
Myst: This is straight out of Persuasion Engineering by Bandler and
LaValle.
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Mystery:
>I never said you were born in a bubble. I am merely pointing
>out that some of your notions about SS are not accurate (at least IMHO).
>Have you ever to any of RJ's tape or video series that have been
>produced duringthe last 4 years?
Yep. All of it. People send me stuff.
>I think your understanding of SS is based primarily upon what you learn
>from the internet, and that doesn't include much of SS,including the most
>powerful aspects of SS. Have you ever attended one of his seminars?
Not yet.
>I don't think SS is the be all and end all. I was seducing beautiful women
>years before I ever heard of SS or Ross. I do think SS is an excellent
>workable system that people can use to transform their life and get the
>results they want with women while leaving the women better than when they
>found them.
So far we are in agreement.
>I don't think it is the only system, but I think it is the best system that
I have >come across for seduction. Personally, if I'm not seducing her by
making >her feel better, then I'm not interested.
MM (Mystery Method») is not about TEARING women down. 'NEG Theory' is about
LOWERING their bloated self esteem so you can then REWARD her behavior by
making her feel good.
>I think that is half the fun. Personally, I'd rather create interest than
>merely hope to see indicators of interest (IOI's).
MM is not passive. It's ABOUT creating interest. You look for
indicators AFTER you've performed routines that demonstrate or convey
your character. It's not about HOPING she'll like the way you look.
It's about performing actions and behaviors that will make her WANT YOU.
Before I tell my 5 or so routines, she doesn't want me. BUT ... AFTER
I perform those routines, she starts showing IOI's. So ... there must
be something in those routines that cause her to like me. It's like a
comedian ... BEFORE his act you don't know him or care about him but
after, you like him.
>Mystery, I feel like your trying to turn this into a one-upmanship contest
>rather than a productive dialogue.
Nope. Just enjoying clarifying misunderstood concepts.
>I feel like you've been misquoting me and twisting my words. Remember, >we
both understand about thought viruses, language patterns, propaganda >and
the like. I think you're playing games by making vague references to
>logical fallacies.
My references have been anything but vague. When you create a logical
fallacy, I point it out specifically.
>I'm not only familiar with the baloney detection kit, but I can also point
you >to the academic sources on critical thinking and logic (Check out
"Critical >Thinking: Evaluating Claims and Arguments in Everyday Life by
Brooke >Noel Moore and Richard Parker -- is a good starting point). It is
very slick >the way you accuse me of a "slippery slope" but yet you don't
point to any >slippery slope.
I had assumed it was self evident - it's unfortunate I don't have logs
now to finally end this thread neatly.
>Chapter 2 of the above book starts with a discussion of Unclarity and
>ambiguity. "A claim is vague if it lacks sufficient precision to convey
the >information appropriate to its use." p25. The fact is that your
accusation is >a logical fallacy and a manipulative game. I find that you're
frequently >engaging in the "Straw Man" (p.109)."The so-called straw man
>pseudoargument is what you get when a claimor position (x) is alleged to be
>refuted because of a successful attack on a distorted, exaggerated, weak or
>misrepresented version of it ("X"). In other words, an opponent's real
>position is ignored while a "straw" version of it is roundly attacked: "X"
is >false because "X" is false." Your vague comment about the fallacies and
the >slippery slope is another example of this.
All fair concepts. And throwing this into the mess is also a form of
"bullshit baffles brains." If you go back to read what you wrote, you
will see what the slippery slope I was referring to. I believe if I
can recall the specific issue, was neg theory where you say that
negging is to destroy her reality. NEGGING is SHORT-TERM. A neg is
just a statement you make in the first 25 minutes of the PU. It isn't
some long term character attack on the girl. I am completely willing to
lose this battle because I come unprepared: I delete cliff's
newsletters that I've read and can't find the evidence of your fallacy.
Poor me.
>How about looking at the accuracy of my statements and the usefulness of
>what I write.
Resend the text you typed that I had initially replied to and we can
(for anal thoroughness' sake) once and for all know that Mystery was
correct. OR ... say that we don't care 'cause the argument went off
topic. Although I do enjoy arguments : ) That's part of the fun. If we
all agreed then what, right?
> GameMaster: There ain't no such thing as a 10. I have known
several 9's in> my life that always sooner or later proved that they had a
big ole'fucking> hole in their head thereby rendering their status to the
negative column.One of the greatest pieces of graffiti that I ever came
across
read "No matter how hot the woman, somewhere, someplace is a guy who is
fed up with her shit!"
When a PUA rates a girl a 10, he isn't claiming she is PERFECT. Perfect
is far too subjective. We rate a girl so we can gauge how we shall
approach her ... after all, the approach to an HB is different from that
of a B.
>My Comment: I think that what Ross was talking about is that Mystery's
>looks provide him the opportunity to go to the next step, to show his
>attitude and style. Years ago when I was totally inexperienced and did not
>consider myself particularly attractive, I had (and it actually still
>happens the odd time) some women immediately express how uninterested >they
were. I used to believe that I just didn't have the looks needed to
>attract these women but the real important part is that they wouldn't stay
put >long enough to talk to you. Without getting their ear at all, you
can't get any
>where (of course, there are retaliatory tactics which are available, but
>that's another story).
I understand that we must do what we must to get her ear. If we are
particularly good looking, we WILL get her ear. I don't think it's my
looks that assist me in them listening to my opener. I think it's more
about grooming. If I were dressed like shit and smelled, they would
brush me off. Grooming is the REAL INSTANT EAR OPENER. And then, of
course, since I know a 10 won't even lend me her ear at all, I have to
provide initial social proof. I don't have the looks to get the ear of
a 10. SO ... I need her to see me with other girls first so when I
approach she has curiousity about me. This is pawning. Once, I was
talking with 2 girls and then a better girl (a blond) sat beside me. I
turned and started talking to her right away (3 second rule) and I am
CERTAIN the conversation sparked BECAUSE I wasn't a threat thanks to the
girls she THOUGHT I was with. So ... it's not about looks. It's about
grooming and social proof. And then you BEHAVE as if you WERE
good looking. Not through conceit but rather through sincere acceptance
of your great appearance. If you are healthy, you are good looking.
Leave it at that. I don't have fucked up moles and shit. If you don't
either, good. Now drop the issue. We can't change this anyways. I
wish I were better looking but I'm not. So I deal with it by appearing
good looking thanks to my behavior, my grooming (clothing) and social
proof.
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Berty:
Met this girl the other day she's in massage school. We talked and told
jokes. After which we exchanged e-mail too talk and exchange jokes, I asked
her if she liked poems, she said she'd liked to read some. After I sent her
the first one, this is what I got from her..
>beautiful poem. Even I could understand it! :). If you have more I
would love
>to hear them. I would also like to com visit you again sometime I just
don't
>know when that will be quite yet. Once I am done with school in three
weeks I
>will have lots of time. We will have to pick a day then. I have another
joke
>for you....
So, I sent her a second one and this is what I got back from her....
>I enjoyed working with you the first time through school. However, I
>think that you took more of a liking to me then I had hoped. Your poems
are a
>little too sensual and I don't feel them appropriate. Please do not
e-mail
>those types of poems anymore, they make me uncomfortable. I do have a
>boyfriend as you know, and he isn't happy with what you send me and
neither
>am I.
So, can someone help formulate a response to this.....
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Magic Juan:
This is a response to a really old one (just catching up!) and really not
related to seduction. The question was credited to Halbster.
>Halbster:
>I am curious about how guys consider there cars in relation to seduction.
>I'm not talking about what you drive, but how you keep it, and what you
keep
>in your car. Because of my busy schedule I kinda live out of my car. It
Well, if you can't stick to a rule like "don't eat in your car", then at
the very least, become more consistently aware of trash cans. Make it a
habit that each time you step out of your car, you will look for anything
that can be thrown away (even if you didn't just eat). You'll be delighted
to notice how readily available trash cans are.
Brookstone sells a small car litter bag holder that hangs off the back of
the passenger seat. It also holds a tissue box underneath (in a pinch
tissues can substitute as napkins). It doesn't hold a ton of trash, but
if you have an immediate need to throw away a soda can or a wrapper which
might contain crumbs, they are useful. So, taking the same trash that
would have been maybe tossed to the passenger seat, you instead put it
somewhere that makes you seem like a neatnik. Hope you've got a
compartment where you can keep spare small trash bags.
Get used to going down to the vacuums at the car wash often, even if you
don't wash your car. Also, get one or two of those giant wet towels and
just LOOK for surfaces to clean. Most stains come off even if they don't
seem to at first.
>It also probably causes them to think I'm a slob.
You're a slob : ). With a little creativity though, you can appear neat
without having to interrupt your lifestyle much.
>My car typically has some changes of clothing, gym bags/gym equipment,
What's in your trunk?
>a few books and magazines,
Where's your mapholder? What could you put in your car that could
serve as a small magazine rack or book shelf? Make it something portable
that can easily be stuffed in the trunk just BEFORE you pick her up
(unless there's reading material you're hoping she'll see).
>a bag of pretzels,
Hmmm. I don't suppose installing a kitchenette is practical.
And I suppose these pretzels are open? So that when you move them
the crumbs spill on the seat? It might be more expensive, but what
about buying smaller bags of pretzels that you can eat in one shot?
How about one of those large lunch bags that are thermally insulated?
You could keep snacks in 'em but they'll still look reasonable neat.
>a few audiobooks, a music tape,
Cassette holders, dude. My car is full of cassette and cd holders. They
don't look that messy (partly cuz both they and the seats are black).
Yet, I still have enough music with me.
>things I need for work (mainly papers, and work related reading),
Ahem. Brief case.
>and some small things I like to keep (a Dictaphone, moisturizer,
>hand sanitizer *use sparingly b/c it kills good bacteria & dries skin,
>tissues, nail clipper) etc.
Small toiletry bag. Or maybe you could use some of the compartments in
your gym bag. You are using these things after the gym anyway right?
Or are you getting into your car all sweaty so that it soaks into the
seat?
So I guess my answer is: find portable places to hide these things in.
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Jeff:
>Superfusion:
>I saw Sisonpyh's post and in keeping with Sisonpyh's concept of telling
>the babes something very profound, I expanded on his language to form a
>pattern that is pretty damn powerful. See what you think:
>
>"You don't have me fooled for a minute, dear." When she says "What are you
>talking about?"you say "You don't fool me for a minute with this act that
>you
>put on. I can see right thru that false mask that you wear when you are
with
>people. Now, I know that most men probably fall for this persona of yours.
>You try to put out this attitude that says: 'I'm beautiful and
>super-confident and even arrogant and aloof and indifferent and so you
>always get your way' because most men buy this act, so, for most of your
>adult life, you've been able to get by on your looks ... but I know
>something about you that none of them know... and that is this: that
there's
>really another side of you. The side that none of THEM get to see. The side
>of you that's on the inside. I can tell there's something else going on
>inside of you that is completely different from what you show on the
outside
>to the rest of the world. (I'll bet you a dollar right now that I know else
>something about you that no one who's only known you for 5 minutes has EVER
>known... )...
Do you just leave this part out if you've known her awhile, or can you not
do this on girls you already know? It seems really powerful. Have you
tried it?
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
| cliff’s list advertisment section |
| Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are
just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links
to these emails. The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take
over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such
as proper mailing list software) for this list. If you were going to buy the product
anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going
at no extra cost to anyone. NON SEDUCTION-RELATED:
RECOMMENDED:
NOT REVIEWED YET:
|
| cliff’s free plugs section |
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all
recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back
here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up —
from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of
weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):
|
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