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What wiggles or shines MUST be valuable
5/5/01 9:03:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time
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NightLight9 (the following is a dialogue on my new Boyfriend Destroyer that
I mentioned in my last email, with my comments in-between NightLight9's.
Because this is spliced from emails going back and forth, it may be a bit
confusing but hopefully the essence has been maintained):
First, the BF Destroyer:
"Well, let me ask you one question and see if you can be truly honest with
me, are you so madly in love with that guy that I should just wish you well
and be on my way, or should I push past this test to find out what happiness
we could have together?"
NightLight9:
This puts a lot of pressure on her to be the one to say "Yes I'm going to
cheat on him" .
My Comment: I think you are taking this the wrong way. I find that most of
these women don't have truly deep relationships that they are really happy
in, and many of them use the bf defense as a test to see if you are going to
give up easily.
NightLight9: This I believe is true for many women.
My Comment Continues: As far as cheating, you can't make someone do
something they really don't want to do.
NightLight9: I agree although you certainly can create situations where
people act ways they wouldn't have otherwise acted. Look at Patty Hearst
for an example...This discussion is orthogonal to the BF destroyer, however.
My Comment (in-between): Listen, if she's going to "cheat" on her BF after
meeting me for probably a grand total of 90 seconds, it wasn't much of a
relationship now was it? She doesn't know me -- I just approached her
whether on the street or in a bar (or, knowing me, almost anywhere) -- and
my experience with women is that what they say to total strangers in such a
situation means absolutely nothing to them. They can tell you anything,
none of it necessarily true. Even if it is true, like the "I have a bf"
statement, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. As one of my other BF
destroyers goes, she had a BF before the one she has now and I am just the
next one.
NightLight9: This one I like for certain women (those who like a challenge).
My Comments Continue: The best other BF destroyer I think is to just ignore
her comment and keep going.
NightLight9: That's one of my normal responses. I have a low rate of
return with BF destroyers though. I've only fooled around with a handful of
chicks that I know to have had BF's.
My Comments Continue: If she develops an attraction, she'll resolve the BF
issue herself. But the problem with that one is that I don't really want to
keep going and waste my time if it really isn't going to go anywhere. I
want to know now. I don't want to expend the effort to get her interested
only to then find out that her BF will still be an obstacle.
NightLight9: This is were our disagreement is. I just don't think that
works. It's like if I showed up to meet a girl and said, I'm going to take
you home and fuck you in a half hour, it wouldn't work, but if I don't say
that, it's fairly
often that I take her home and fuck her in a half hour.
My Comment on the above: You are moving too fast. I didn't offer her sex
or anything vaguely like that -- I am only putting my foot in the door. If
the door is closed, I would prefer to find out as soon as possible. Yes it
is true what you say, except that the difference is that in the situation
you mention the girl's availability is not in question. How soon something
will happen is secondary.
NightLight9: As I read the BFD that you posted to the list is challenging
and might work with those girls who are very into verbal sparing, but I
think the one you mention above and have used previously would be more
effective with this
kind of verbally challenging girl.
My Comment on the above: I am not sure I follow this comment. Long before
SS I came up with a pick up technique (which I proudly must say is, as far
as I know, still included in the handout that Ross gives out at his seminars
as I did it a few times hanging out with him about 10-11 years ago) where I
go up to a woman and say, "Excuse me, may I ask you a question?" "Yes"
"Would you go out with someone you met (fill in where you are, e.g.. in the
gym, on the street, etc.)?" I used this very effectively (I should probably
use it again, now that I think about it) because it saves you a lot of
trouble. The girl will answer either yes or maybe if she is either
interested or available, or no if she's not interested or unavailable. I am
not looking to get into any verbal sparing. I am looking for efficiency!
NightLight9 (This next comment goes back to specific comments on the BFD):
Think reframing this is in order. "Cool, so let me ask you one question and
feel free to be truly honest with me... and yourself, because I can already
tell you are the kind of person who must be madly in love with someone to
stay with them...
My Comment: How can you tell that?
NightLight9: I never get BF resistance so early on that I haven't done some
value elicitation. I generally hear it about 5-10 minutes into the
conversation,
so I'm in a position to say something like that, particularly if I've
already been accurate in my "intuition" and it's complimentary. I might use
something as a softener like "I can tell you are very passionate so..."
My Comments (these go to his comment above that ends "I can already tell you
are the kind of person who must be madly in love with someone to stay with
them"): And why give her a reason to put her back up and now have to
maintain the BF defense? Here you are telling her that the BF has to be
someone she's madly in love with or she wouldn't be with him, when the truth
is he could be "filling a role" and she could have just said it as a knee
jerk reaction (keep in mind, most of the women I approach are in what I
would classify as the "10" or approaching "10" quality and they must get hit
on so often that many of their responses are automated because they have to
deal with guys coming on to them so frequently).
NightLight9 on the above: I say this because it's so unlikely to be true
that it will often cause a polarity response. "No he's not," so some girls
say "yes he is", but I tend to think these girls would have objected later.
Delivery is important and you have to stress being honest and also really
get her plugged into what she values in a relationship. Also if you really
want to fuck, with her...
My Comment (interrupting): Cute use of the comma there.
NightLight9 Continues: ...after every response of what she values, subtly
have her give examples of how BF's she's had didn't do it, but then get her
going on the ones where her current BF doesn't.
My Comment on the above: It appeared to me that your suggestion would
encourage her to maintain how great her BF was. Your comment about getting
her to give examples of how BF's in the past didn't do what she values and
to get her going on where her current one doesn't either, is just not my
style. I stay away completely from talking with them about their BF's, past
or present. It's like the last thing I want to talk about -- a club I have
not joined yet.
NightLight9 Continues with his version of the BFD: What's really important
to you in a relationship ?
My Comment (To follow this, you might re-read my BFD and then put together
NightLight9's version from all the sections that are quoted, to see the
difference): This will drag out the conversation a lot more than I want to
at this point. She's told me she has a bf -- on the surface this is a dead
end. I don't want to waste time with her if that's the case. I want to
find out if I can get past that and in the shortest time period possible.
NightLight9: I would say, just leave then as soon as she said it. I just
hate the use of the term "test" in your response. It sounds like you aren't
up to the
challenge and you need to ask for help already.
My Comment on the above: Here's something that I think is worth further
exploration. I was iffy about using that word "test" also and you are
probably right about this. I haven't come up with an alternative yet, but
it will come to me.
NightLight9 (Continues his version of the BF Destroyer): ... Interesting.
You must feel really lucky that your friend is providing you
she cares about> so wonderfully.
My Comment: It sounds to me like you are propping up the qualities of the
bf. He doesn't need my help.
NightLight9 on the above: You have to really over do it and then ask
"doesn't he?" etc. This will create doubt. My experience is that saying
negative things outright about the BF only cause a polarity response on her
part to defend him and is also somewhat transparent to your intentions and
therefore you sound like a bit of used car salesman.
My Comment on the above: I agree completely that saying negative things
about the BF is the wrong way to go. I just don't like to say anything
about him whereas you propose structuring it in a way to create doubt. I
think that's very valid but, like I said, I stay away from talking about her
BF completely.
NightLight9 Continues:
such a good thing for someone>
My Comment: I agree, except that the way you have phrased it she is
encouraged to stick to her guns and maintain her position, whether she
really meant it or not.
NightLight9: I disagree. I think my way gives her an out to admit that's
he's not
perfect and therefore a toe hold. This is most likely to work if 1) there
really is another guy (because fictional guys have no flaws) 2) she really
doesn't feel fulfilled by him.
My Comment on the above: You have a point. I will have to keep this in
mind if I can't get away from talking about a BF with one.
NightLight9 Continues: ...if she says, well he doesn't, then get her going
on how "horrible it is that some guys just don't treat your wondrous self
the way you deserve"
My Comment: This sounds very supplicative to me. From my experience, they
rarely will say it the way you put it -- they might shrug slightly which you
can then pick up on. I think something more along the lines of "well,
perhaps it might be an idea to consider something new, a change for the
better."
NightLight9: I think I am considering a situation with much more rapport
than you. I would even consider telling her she is like a sister to me.
My Comment: Definitely you are further along the rapport line than I am.
In my model, I have just met her. It's way too soon to give her the
"sister" or "friend" treatment in my way of thinking. I hope this exchange
will stimulate some good ideas as this is a very important issue.
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Mystery:
(Commenting on TGB123):
> I have a new job! For the last week, I have been on my feet on the ground
>doing promotion work. For young or poor people on this list who want to
>improve their communication skills I suggest doing promo. I am doing a
>German newspaper in two ways: in the morning until early afternoon, I'm
>standing on the street and ask every passerby if they are willing to read
that >paper for free for two weeks. Pays neatly, pretty cool. In the
evening, I'm >touring bars. That means I ask sitting people (who can hardly
run away) if >they could print me some money. This can lead to interesting
conversation >easily. Well, I'll sit down for a moment or a cigarette, what
are you drinking? >Not Zombie hopefully :[ OK, have you ever experienced
AA? I thought it >wasn't anticipatory but approach anxiety... and it cannot
survive doing such a >job. It is too fast. Let's humbly say I have
encountered 100 HB's today. >They mostly suck, alright. Now I am improving
on getting to know people, >relating to them. Do you think I ever collected
numbers the whole week I'm >doing that job? Yes, one time. But I met 2 girls
who told me I had talked to >them earlier. Who were they? What matters most
to me in my job is IF >THEY HAVE GOOD TASTE and try my great product for
free. And make >me money. Yes, nothing to lose. I need not remember them.
It's a big city. Of >course, I'm sad on missing out several opportunities
but I'm learning. So, I >overcome my paranoiac AFCness. And I'm paying my
debts. That really >picks up my mood. And here is the first lesson I
learned: if you want to sell >something to a group, target one person out of
it. If there is a reluctant >answerer for the group, speak to someone else.
As for sarging, this means >it's better to target the target. How to
entertain groups, Mystery?):
Who IS the target, though, when approaching a group? Sometimes it is
CLEAR when the target is a 10. But what if (rarely) there are TWO 10's?
Or more reasonably, there are more than one 8+. In selling a product
or service, you can't single out your target as ALL GROUP MEMBERS are
potential customers ... of course you have to QUALIFY those who may
have interest ... but you can't do that til you PITCH EACH MEMBER. So
you can save time AND create social proof by pitching to ONE and having
the rest listen in. The fact that you continue to have a group around
you and the person you direct your pitch to is the social proof that
creates a sense of credibility and authority. However, the person you
pitch to may NOT be your actual TARGET. She may not buy something but
one of the people watching MAY. In fact, it is my experience that the
person you pitch to generally does NOT bite ... especially if she's a
10. If you approach a 10 directly she will blow you off AUTOMATICALLY
before you can pitch your wares. That is why if you FIRST get
attention then interest from one in her peer group you can THEN get her
attention. It's basically the same as DIRECT PITCHING only instead you
pitch to ANY OTHER PERSON that is receptive and once you have an ANCHOR into
the group you can then switch attention to another person til you get around
to the TARGET. Have LOTS of material (stories, games,
thoughts, routines, patterns, etc.) so you can ENTERTAIN EVERYBODY til
you FINALLY get to the target. Remember that though you hadn't been
speaking DIRECTLY to the target, she's been listening. This LACK of
interest in her directly builds curiousity, after all. In CAT THEORY,
when you wiggle a string in front of a cat it goes for it even if it
doesn't need the frickin' string. When you tell someone that what you
have is rare (conveying that it's hard to get) and therefore valuable,
even if the person doesn't need the item he/she will WANT it. Fucked up,
eh? Ever think why people WANT diamonds? It's a MASS CONSPIRACY that
works because of CAT THEORY.
>NightLight:
>Ok, so I got played BIG TIME! She put up a HOOP and I jumped through
>it, like a good little doggie. It cost me pride & dignity, and I have no
>intention of calling her again.
It's often better to eject and move on (one and done) than to crawl
around on all fours in the darkness of the DAMAGE ZONE.
>Ok, fine. So Mystery, where (maybe it's
>perfectly obvious to everyone but me), exactly, did I screw up? How could I
>have handled her HOOP and changed it into her jumping through MY >HOOP?
There are two ways: say NO and offer another hoop for her or else just
say no and offer her the SAME hoop. The best thing I can do is imagine
I'm HER. Let's say I get a call from some chick and she jokes that she's
coming over. I say OK thinking it's not REAL. Then on the way to my
place, I realize this isn't fun anymore because what turned from a fun
phone call is turning into a guest at my house I have to get dressed
and clean up for. So I fluff her off (I would only do that if I didn't
really want her there). Since all your PERSONALITY CONVEYING is done the
FIRST TIME you meet her (the first impression) your job isn't to
CONVINCE her you are MORE WORTHY than what you first displayed on day one.
Either the first impression is strong enough or not. If it's not,
don't think it's your fault that you couldn't convey MORE on the phone.
Sure there are exceptions to the rule (like the 2 or 3 times in my life
I stayed on the phone with a girl for HOURS) but generally the GREEN
LIGHTS given to you will stem from the work you did on day one. The
best thing to do is LEARN from this: don't overextend yourself and start
driving without directions. Take the bull by the horns - get the
directions COMPLETELY. Get ALL the information and if she is
reluctant, don't GO! I know we WANT to go but we also want to convey
that we may have BETTER things to do (CAT THEORY - wiggling the string
- ya want it? Gotta CATCH it! What wiggles or shines MUST be valuable
- that is why shiny shirts are a good thing).
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Stephanie (from private email):
I found your comment, "Your comment about feeling safe and comfortable with
him is very interesting -- I think this is what most of women want but with
the excitement still there. The problem is that once they feel a guy is
safe, he usually ceases to be exciting any more", quite interesting. I
think women especially think it is always supposed to be exciting. Well,
let
me tell you, nothing in life is always anything. Men are not and should not
be expected to keep things alive and passionate. It is too much pressure
and responsibility. How can any one man do that without some help and
cooperation from his significant other? We all have standards and some of
them are really unimportant when we examine them. Sometimes changing your
perspectives changes what you view as truly important. What do we need to
be happy? What do we want? How do we get both of them without feeling as
though we sacrificed or settled too much? That is what needs to be thought
about prior to entering a new relationship. Perhaps the women are not
motivating enough to stimulate the men to try new things and keep it fresh.
My Comment: Reality is that the burden is on the man to behave in a manner
where he has sidestepped all the landmines, passed the tests, and has still
managed to maintain that appeal. And note that I am more talking about the
very early stages of a relationship (whereas you refer to the woman in the
situation as a 'significant other', which implies this is much further
along). It's nice to say that it shouldn't be all on the man's shoulders,
but women are so quick to cut you loose there's no other way to look at it.
If you don't have your skills in line (or if you haven't through mostly luck
managed to succeed in a particular situation, or if she hasn't just decided
for her own reasons that you are a tasty treat), you can expect a rough
road. Once you have gone beyond that initial phase, you need to know how to
keep her interested without having to behave in such a way that is
uncomfortable or unnatural for you (or expend so much effort that you aren't
enjoying the process).
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