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Are you putting moves on me?
9/27/01 9:42:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time

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Cramias:
Here's a review of the KenXtions tapes (http://www.kenxtions.com/). I
received the tapes about a month ago, and I am very impressed with them.
The system focuses entirely upon walkups and phone calls. For a beginner,
these tapes would be tremendously useful. And there is plenty of innovative
stuff that may benefit those more experienced as well. For instance, the
openers in this system are entirely situational -- he gives 40 or so
openers for different situations you find yourself in commonly. This really
appeals to me, as using situational-type openers makes it feel less canned,
to me, than the typical SS opener. He gives a great framework for walkups
which I think was already mentioned on your list. The nice thing about his
framework is he shows you how to transition smoothly from the opener to the
convo and from that to the close, which bridges nicely across the two most
awkward moments in a walkup. The most impressive thing about the system
though, is the tape on closing. This former telemarketer knows his shit
when it comes to closing. He tells you how to distinguish between autopilot
objections, conditional objections and buyer's resistance, and how to "dig"
into an autopilot response and find out her real objection so you can
reframe that. And some of his canned rebuttals are GREAT. One example that
I've gotten a lot of mileage out of lately: (In response to "why don't you
give me your #) "Tell you what, I'll make you a deal. I'll give you my
number... and you give me yours... and if I don't hear from you in a week
then I'll give you a call. Is that fair?"
My only caveat is that there is not much to the ATTRACT part of this guys'
FMAC. His entire focus is just getting you to learn to do the approach and
to close every time. But other systems like SS or MM could easily be fit
into his framework. Overall, a very good system for a low price, and a
must-buy for newbies who need to work on their walkups.
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NightLight9:
(Commenting on: "Cliff's Comment: Two things - one she responded with a
rather cold short
email saying that she couldn't on Tuesday and that she would get back to me.
[snip] so I am not sure how you see this as "scary, clingy, desperate and
weird."
I thought I was "refreshingly honest" with her with that email, but you
never know how another person will see what you see."):
It's all in context and delivery. When I first read it I thought "scary,
clingy, desperate and weird." But then I thought some more. I'm sure it's
not my style of communication, but it is your style of
communication. If I were to say it, I think it would come off clingy and
weird, but for you (and with certain women) it might work. The proof is in
the pudding. Maybe some reframing would have helped at the beginning. "I
don't know if your still the kind of person who appreciates direct
honesty..." Let us know how it turns out. My experience with women/people
is they want honesty as long as the truth happens to be what they want to
hear. Lots of framing is required if
you want to be honest, which I do, and liked, which I do.
Cliff's Comment: The key here is that I had already made out with this
woman 3-4 times about a year ago. Her giving me the cheek was totally
inappropriate, and I shouldn't have accepted it. I was mainly mad at myself
for this. In any event, I have moved on.
(Commenting on: "Stephane said: This brings me to a belief that I would
like to reframe that a lot of us have been taught. I read a Barbara
DeAngelis book that said you should
never try to change your partner, and just accept them as they are. Now, I
like Barb, respect her work, and would definitely do her! But this is
wrong, in my opinion."):
One of the reasons that she has to say that is that most people are so
inept at getting change that it's just foolish and painful to try. I've
changed lots of people, and they've changed me.
Sometimes it was even on purpose ;-) Also, some things are easier to change
than others. Also some behaviors are much easier to affect than others.
Sometimes all you need to do is just tell her to stop doing it. Other
times, just frame it. Others repeated conditioning. NLP tricks (swoosh,
etc). Still sometimes there are deep underlying causes that need to be
worked on or else you can never achieve lasting results. Finally, I believe
some people are just broken, and trying to fix them is going to be
impossible (I won't argue with those, who reply that that just shows a/my
lack of resources, but I will continue to disagree). Just thoughts on the
complicated nature of the human mind.
(Commenting in: "(MTL_PUA said:
2) It seems that age regression works much better with women that have a
lower level of self-esteem. I have tried this with "happy-go-lucky" girls
without much success, because they have no regrets. This is valuable
information, as this is something you can see right off the bat with women.)
Great post. One comment here: I don't think you're
doing a real age regression. What your doing is really cool, but it's called
time distortion. Both are very powerful. You mentioned that you asked what
things she would do over, which is a little bit of age regression, but
that's only going to work on introspective chicks. Anyway, the goal of age
regression is to get them to go back and feel like they are kids again. "Do
you remember when you were little and you'd wake up on X-mas morning?
That feeling of anticipation  and excitement ?" The idea is that
people are more susceptible to commands when they are age regressed.
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Mark B.:
What a night last night. One of my babes invites me to go see Rock Star the
movie. When I pick her up she is all upset because she spent the day with
her girlfriend and they were distressed about the status of their
relationships so as soon as she gets into my car she starts the following
tirade. I figure I will use more of my power of mismatching so I go into
the following discussion with her.
HBB: "Mark, you are just using me for sex. Where is this thing going
between us?"
Me: "What do you mean where is it going. Let's talk about something else?"
HBB: "No , I need to know because if it's just sex then I am going out
there and if I meet someone else I will go out with him and the fucking
stops then."
Me: "If that is the case then I will now stop the car and you are getting
out right now on the street and you can go to see the movie on your own and
I am done with you."
HBB: - dumbfounded look on her face "You would not do that would you?"
Me: "You will continue fucking me as long as I want to and accept the
situation for how it is. You have it really good with me. No else can fuck
you like I can so relax and calm down."
By this time she has a stunned look on her face and cannot believe what I
am saying to her. She tries to act tough but each time I stand up to her
and mismatch whatever she says. Eventually she calms down, we park and
start walking to the theatre. Then in the middle of the street I am telling
her how women need to feel dominated by men and how they love that
treatment. She starts to get all upset and starts yelling at me in the
middle of a busy street with people all around us. I yell back but I am
calm inside being fully aware that what I am doing. She says I am making a
scene and then I look around me at all the people there and yell out loud.
Me: "Excuse me everyone look here. I am having a scene here with this woman."
About 10 people start to look and I am killing myself inside of laughter.
She gets all embarrassed and finally calms down for good for the night. We
get to the theatre and she buys the tickets and a latte and see the movie.
After we went back to my place but it was that time of the month so all we
did was just get each other off with our hands. But once again standing up
to their bull works like a charm. She became another soft puppy.
(Separate post by Mark):
Man what a crazy day.
I am walking to the mall this afternoon across form where I work. I see
this girl that works at a health food store in the mall. She sold me some
green tea yesterday. I decide to mismatch everything on purpose just to see
its effect. She is nothing hot but a good test subject for my new found
power so I go for it.
 From about 20 feet away:
Me: "Hey babe, what are you doing"
Health Store Girl HSG: "Waiting for a ride. Crappy weather, eh?" (it was
raining)
Me; "No I love this weather and all the rain."
Some more convo where I deliberately mismatch 90% of what she says.
She then starts to smile and calls me over to get closer. We start talking
about diet and eating.
HSG: "You should not eat meat. It's bad for you"
Me: "I love meat, I eat it every day."
HSG: "We should not kill animals."
Me: "I love animals. Especially when they are hot and sizzling on my plate."
HSG: "You should drink black tea everyday."
Me: "No I hate that shit. It tastes awful."
Then this totally hot babe walks by and I ignore the girl I am talking to
and look at the babe and smile. She passes and I get back to talking.
Me: "I do not believe in all this health food healing shit."
HSG: "You are right. It's not for everyone."
On and on like this for about 10 minutes. I did not try to convince her of
my opinion just stated a differing one. Also nothing sexual or suggestive.
Then each time I motioned to leave she held me with more conversation. Then
I said I had to run and started to walk away and she looks at me deep in
the eye and says "Goodbye, sweetie". I took off laughing.
Normally you would not expect people and women to have this response. I
think though the key is to assert your view but not try to forcibly change
anyone's mind. It's that subtle line that most people do not understand and
as a result do not act appropriately. They equate simply expressing one's
view to forcing your own view upon others. The vision of having people run
away because you tried to force something upon them prevents us from
asserting ourselves and makes us ultimately fail. But we must see the clear
distinction.
Not stating your view makes you look weak. Forcing your view on others by
repeatedly trying to get them to agree and by not backing off is too
onerous and pushes people away. Stating your opinion contrary to what
people think while respecting theirs by not trying to change their view
garners you the most respect. I see this gets the best results because you
come across as manly enough to assert yourself, not some geek, and
confident enough, not some desperate guy, in your view that you do not have
to impose your view on anyone. Winner all around.
Mismatching and being in control seems to be one of the ultimate non-sexual
mind fucks for a woman. I am beginning to notice that it's even more
powerful than imbedded commands or patterns, although they are still
important for eliciting states once you have her interest. I think the
first step in a successful seduction is to get her intrigue and interest
and it seems like you can get her intrigued and interested in you just by
keeping in mind that whatever you say make sure it's your own voice. Babes,
especially hot ones are so used to guys falling over them and agreeing that
when you as a real guy come along and have the balls to stand up to them
they cannot help but desire you for they perceive you as a real man. This
way you can get the hottest babes.
The model seems to work like this.
Pick up line: "You are a stunning example of genetic perfection" - feels
good to woman.
Mismatching: HB "Buy me a drink" You "No, you buy me one" - intrigue,
interest and respect.
Patterns You "A guy said to this girl 'I want to go down on you all night
long.........." - arousal.
Action - you kiss her passionately - fucking.
I would suggest your goals can be to simply mismatch women in all aspects
of your interaction just to see your results. You will notice their
increased intrigue level on all fronts and then you can proceed to the
sexual stuff.
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Stephane:
Commenting on: ("Stephanie ”What the guys in your newsletter
don't seem to get is that slight manipulation is one thing, but flat out
deception is not right."):
Where do you come off saying that about us? I have read each any every
single one of these emails (That’s A LOT of reading!) and not ONCE have I
read anything about deception. You’re deceiving yourself about most of the
men on this list, Stephanie.
Commenting on: (“We all play little games in the matter of love, but
becoming someone you have no ability to be does not work. I am all for
improving ourselves, but we need to also remember to be realistic with our
limitations."):
I am 5 foot 10, and will never be 6 foot 2. I’ve accepted that. But if
you’re referring to traits of personality, communication skills, beliefs,
or ANY inner qualities and characteristics whatsoever, then I’m going to
have to disagree. If you want to engage in the activity of ‘being
realistic’ about your limitations, then I strongly urge you realistically
view them as things you can change. Go ahead and try to show me ONE
limitation in a human being that can’t be altered in some way. In fact, I’m
even going to go so far as to say that staying the same is absolutely
impossible. What YOU don’t seem to get is that deep deep inside you, and
all of us, there’s a learning machine that’s soooooo special…

Commenting on: "MTL_PUA Always works. Stick your fist out and say "Don't
leave me hanging on this!" Let them knock your fist with theirs. It's a
sign of acceptance and creates an immediate bond. I have used this with
HB9/10's and it lowers their bitch shield fairly fast."):
I don’t get it. Could you explain this further? Anything to lower bitch
shields…

Commenting on: ("I order 2 drinks, and as I turn around. I can see her
extending her hand for the drink (I bought it for NL9 actually), so I just
go see NL9 right away and give it to him. I turn around and she has that "I
can't believe you!!!" look on her face. Total break state."):
Brings new meaning to the “Take away”! This is so good, I can just see her
face now…but she deserved it for assuming. I’m going to push this one step
further and buy two drinks for MYSELF next time I’m at a bar with an HB,
just for the fun of it.
Commenting on: ("Next I go into what I call my “Hitting On Me Connection
Pattern”. This is pure gold. If there is 1 pattern you need to know, it's
this one!"):
WELL?????
Commenting on: ("I was not next to mine in the cab, and by the time we got
to the hotel, she was NOT in that trance mode anymore, with not enough time
to re-engage."):
AHHH, the importance of anchoring. You could have got her in trance mode
again by firing off anchors and/or asking questions that ‘force’ her to go
into trance. Next time I see you, I’ll show you what a handshake interrupt
is! Either way, I know it can be very difficult to F close such a young
girl who has a BF, and probably reservations about ‘cheating’.
I like to say, “I’m glad to hear that you don’t believe in cheating,
because I have to agree that I would never cheat myself out of my own
pleasure either!
Commenting on: ("She kept talking about sex, but stressing that she does
not sleep with men right away. She went to the extreme by saying "Tom, if
you think you are going to sleep with me tonight, I would definitely tell
you to forget it."):
The embedded command here is ‘sleep with me tonight’. She ran a pattern on
YOU! Aren’t chycks evil? I can’t recall having ever failed after hearing
something like that. I might say, “Who said anything about SLEEPING?!”

Commenting on: ("She told me that she was reluctant to meet with me a
second time because of my age (her 26; me 22)":
Just say, “AWWW, poor baby!” or “I’m sensing a real EGO here. Do you think
I date OLD BAGS or something?! Shit, you could be my mommy!”

Or if you really want to knock her out on her ass, “You’re not talking
about age, but of MATURITY. What’s your definition of maturity?”

She will probably stumble a little and try to find the right words to
describe it. When she’s done with her description, you have the PERFECT
opportunity to give a much more sophisticated and ‘mature’ definition.
Just say, “Maturity is the balance between courage and consideration. See,
you can have the courage to express your ideas and feelings to others, but
if it’s not BALANCED with a sincere consideration for the ideas and
feelings of others, then you are immature. OR, you can be soooo considerate
for the feelings of others, but not have enough of a backbone to stand up
to other people and really express yourself. So to me, the key to being
truly mature is to be constantly striving for the balance between being
considerate AND courageous.”

This pattern will blow her away and should cause her to re-evaluate. Try it!
Commenting on: ("She asked me if I was the type of guy to flirt a lot when
I get into a relationship"):
“Well, there’s a difference between flirting, and seducing. I flirt with
almost all women because it’s fun and it feels good. And I encourage my
girlfriends to do the same. And IF I were to be in a relationship with a
woman who is giving me everything I’ve always dreamed of, and who is
capable of letting me give HER everything that she’s always dreamed of, I
would definitely change.”

Commenting on (Follow your heart):
You seem to use this ‘command’ a lot, and your pattern (I didn’t re-post it
here because it’s so long) is extremely sophisticated and amazing. It’s
definitely going into my bag of tricks, and I’m going to be sprinkling a
lot of “Follow your heart” into what I do from now on! Keep it up, bro…

Commenting on ("No name? No problem; I'll call you #1 and you #2 and you #3.
No immediate interest? Just tell them they are BORING. They WILL cheer up;
otherwise, eject as they are NOT worth knowing."):
I’ve just hit a new level of awareness of what I can do with this sort of
thing. Thank you for putting it so bluntly. I see visions dancing in my
mind of beautiful women APOLOGIZING to me and begging for one more chance
to prove that they are worthy….
Stephanie: (Commenting on: "Magic Juan: (On Stephanie) A person who needs
to be trained to speak on how to get a woman in one's life likely doesn't
really have much to offer to begin
with. You can't show me one single person in our societies who has not been
trained on how to speak to others. Nor can you show me one of those people
who didn't need that training, since we weren't born with it. We were all
trained by the people around us: family, friends, neighbors, school
teachers, whatever. In many cases, many of us have sought better training
-- rather than the random training we got from well-meaning but ignorant
people -- from those who have actually taken the time to pay closer
attention. And quite plainly, if you have trouble with people who want to
be trained on how to speak in order to form better relationships with
women, you are clearly on the wrong mailing list, because that is exactly
the topic of it."):
I know people need some amount of training to communicate with others, but
there comes to a point where I feel it is better to be natural and one's
self rather than a perception. I have no trouble with people wanting to
better themselves to improve communication in relationships and I don't
believe I ever said differently. As far as being on this newsletter, I
never subscribed to this newsletter. My dear friend Clifford started
sending it to me well over a year ago and from time to time he adds parts of
my personal emails to share with everyone. I am not interested in the art
of seduction» as much as human nature. My comments were not made to offend,
but rather offer another view that perhaps you and others were unaware of.
GoneSavage's Conversational Snippet:
This is essentially our first get-together.>
HB: "My friend Scott called me last night and asked me to go skydiving
with him today. But, you know, I had to tell him that I already had plans
with you."
GS: "Look at you, you got all these suitors calling you up inviting you to
do spontaneous exciting things. I'm glad you're in demand!"
HB: "Scott is just a friend, I don't have any suitors right now...except
for you."
GS: "Ha! You think of me as a suitor? I must have misled you somewhere.
I like you as a friend but anything else might be a bit risky."
HB: "Are you serious? I can never tell when you are serious."
GS: "I mean, it's rare to meet someone with such a great outlook on life,
such incredible energy, and such a great sense of humor. But, I really
don't know if I'm the kind of person that you could develop feelings for.
I don't know if I'm the kind of person that you would really want to be
with. I don't even know if we could share intense, intimate moments
together. Sure it might be fun finding out, but then I'd really hate
risking this great friendship that we might have by trying to be something
more."
HB: "Oh...if that's how you feel."
GS: "You sound disappointed..."
HB: "It just sounds like a pussy way out. Have some balls."

GS: "Hmm...okay, but you've been warned. Prepare your defense. Once that
line is crossed, things get pretty hot pretty quickly. So be prepared...
I could put a move on you at any time."
A few minutes later I put my hand on her leg.
HB: "Are you putting moves on me?"
GS: "YES...but you were warned..."

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