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She’d just close her eyes for a couple of seconds and say she was ready
12/20/01 2:21:39 PM Eastern Standard Time
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Ross:
(Commenting on: "You're both right. Ross, you CAN elicit, evoke, anchor,
and utilize states of attraction. That's why we're here -- we're all
learning to do that. And Mark
is right about the fact that if a broad thinks you're disgusting right off
the bat, you're probably NOT going home with her tonight! It ain't worth
the hassle! It's possible to turn it around, and while SSers are busy
trying, I'll be fucking the women who WANT me. There. I just condensed the
whole discussion.
And if anybody wants my two cents, you need to be more confident than they
are.
Do that and you won't need a system, you won't need an anchor, you won't need
formal training. You need to trade in all of that shit for a sense of humor
and a dick, and be proud of your sense of humor and dick. heheh. I am
finding out now that it's alot easier than I ever thought..."):
Or you've just learned to incorporate patterning so it just seems natural to
you.
(Commenting on: "(Commenting on: "Tristan: "I did her cube and we fluffed
about various things."): Still using the cube, eh? I want to do stats on
this 'cube' thing. I want to know how many of you are using it, and what
percentage of women actually start to like you because of it. Trist, it
must be good if you're STILL using it!"):
It's awesome..gives you VERY high quality info as well as creates awesome
rapport and opens up all KINDS of thematic possibilities.
(Commenting on: "(Commenting on:"I then make my last conditions clear to
her. I do something similar to Riker's brilliant 3 rules but I emphasize
something a little different. I tell her (as I look into her eyes) that
though I might be in a situation where I want to passionately kiss a woman,
I will only do so if I know she. What is she so afraid of? Getting 'hurt'?
FUCKING DOESN'T HURT! In fact, it feels pretty damn good."):
Ha ha ha. Dude, that is comedy! HA HA HA HA HA
(Commenting on: "She is telling you about Jesus because she doesn't want
you to know the truth that she loves to suck cock and fantasizes about bad
boys all day long..."):
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA....man, oh man, I'm holding my sides laughing! HA HA HA!
(Commenting on: "GameMaster: I wanted to follow up on the story about Miss
Louisiana! I met her online last week and we spoke for the first time on
Wednesday. I got her number and called her up and use this line "Hello
Cindy......well, I have the face.....now I have the voice, and sometimes
the voice....can be just as intriguing as the face. Hi this is GM". They
always say something like "Oh yeah"! We chatted for a while, laughed our
ass off about the whole online thing, and agreed to meet for drinks on
Saturday but before I let her go I installed my voice and linked it to the
place
where she see's "things of beauty". Trust me, I need all the help I can get."):
Hold on a sec; clear something up. Hadn't she asked to see your pic BEFORE
you two talked on the phone? Was the first time she actually got a peek at
you when you met for drinks? Important detail, my man!
(Commenting on: "Consider training yourself using GROUP THEORY. If you
approach a 3set, approaching THE ONE (formerly target) immediately will
alienate the PEER
GROUP (formerly obstacles) every time. So you approach the GROUP and focus
on BEFRIENDING (formerly disarming) THE ONE's FRIENDS (formerly Ug's). When
you NEG THE ONE, you get the respect of her peers while lowering her
self-confidence. From THAT position, you can get permission to 1:1 her and
you are free to work your magic."):
I think this makes perfect sense. Let's go apply it outside of a club
context for even more fun.
(Commenting on: "You are learning that approaching girls 1:1 is
(respectfully) cowardly."):
That's a weird label. You mean, it takes NO balls to approach and HB 9+ just
walking down the street? Let's say approaching an HB 9+ in a group in a
bar might not work so well.
(Commenting on: "You're both right. Ross, you CAN elicit, evoke, anchor,
and utilize states of attraction. That's why we're here -- we're all
learning to do that. And Mark
is right about the fact that if a broad thinks you're disgusting right off the
bat, you're probably NOT going home with her tonight! It ain't
worth the hassle! It's possible to turn it around, and while SSers are
busy trying, I'll be fucking the women who WANT me. There. I just condensed
the whole discussion."):
I agree about the disgusting part, but I'm not THAT unattractive; in
fact, in the right context (when I'm on stage, speaking, as the authority)
women tell me I am fucking hot.
As for fucking the women who want you....I can't find any other way
to make it happen. The question is, how do you move her to WANT you?
(Commenting on: "And if anybody wants my two cents, you need to be more
confident than they are. Do that and you won't need a system, you won't
need an anchor, you won't need formal training."):
I never said "need". I said it sure as hell helps. Otherwise, you will
rely on whether she feels those initial "attraction" butterflies based on
your looks. I don't want to leave it to those chances.
My personal experience is that, being funny and cocky is ONLY enough when
they also just happen to like my look. That happens, but why leave it to
chance? My "look" is quirky and unique, not what most like.
I've got to use my voice, my touch, and how I use language to up the odds.
I've met you, dude, and you're a good looking, young guy. You can get away
with great success with just your sense of humor, your attitude and your
dick.
My experience, over and over and over again is, unless I am on stage as
the authority...NO PATTERNS, NO PUSSY.
My look is just NOT what gives girls those "initial attraction
butterflies" that will even turn on their, "let's give this guy a chance"
mechanism.
It works like this:
Chick has signals for different ways to treat guys, different responses to
give.
Signal: nice, warm, heart feeling mechanism triggered: Nice guy, lbjf
Signal: warmth in face, hmmm sound to herself, feeling of hanging on every
word, narrow focus of vision Mechanism: Hmm..he's interesting...lets here
what he has to say..nice eyes
Signal: Butterflies in tummy, yum sound to herself Mechanism: Wow..he's
cute..let's get friendly and open up to him
See, here is my point: without your looks, young Stephane, your attitude
and humor alone won't get you the butterflies. You might fascinate her with
your conversation, she might find you interesting to talk to, but unless you
are using touch, language and other things to turn her on, she will search
for the "butterflies" and not find them. Thus, you get labeled friend, social
spare-tire, you get blurring when you call them on the phone, etc. etc. etc
BTW, I owe this stuff to my student Merlin.
(Commenting on: "You need to trade in all of that shit for a sense of humor
and a dick, and be proud of your sense of humor and dick. heheh. I am
finding out now that it's alot easier than I ever thought..."):
You're young and very good looking. In most cases, a sense of humor and a
great attitude is all YOU need. You can't tell the rest of us that what is
sufficient
for you, with your gifts, will be sufficient for us.
Same thing for Mark B. If you don't need language, energy, etc., to score,
don't up us guys who do. Count your fucking blessings and feel lucky and wish
us best skills in what we have to do that you do NOT.
(Commenting on: "I responded,"I'm not gonna sit here all day and try and
dazzle you with my looks OR my brains! All **I** have to offer YOU... IS A
SENSE OF HUMOR AND A DICK!" After that she was all mine. I'm so much more
confident than she is. I
never flinched."):
Yeah, she probably liked your looks too. Absent the looks, the cockiness
won't get you the result.
(Commenting on: "After all, I'm only one step ahead of a monkey. I'm a MAN.
Less hair, more thoughts. If anyone steals that quote I'm suing you : )"):
Awesome quote.
(Commenting on: "MB: She went out with him once but then complained that he
was not her type as he revealed too much about himself although he has
money, a great car, looks, a business. She said that all the good things he
said about himself sounded too good to be true and the bad things were just
that, bad."):
Wow...skepticism on her part because of the good stuff....wow.
(Commenting on: "But he did not know that and kept calling her everyday. Bad
"This guy makes me feel so comfortable because he is just being himself, no
games, he says what is on his mind and does not care what is the outcome."):
I like that. He got rapport even though she was suspicious.
(Commenting on: "I feel like I can be myself as well. We even had phone sex
already. He just asked me to put my hand inside my pants and play with
myself and I did. He takes charge and I do not feel like I have to make all
the decisions. For the first time in my
life I can breathe and feel like the pressure is off me." Make your own
conclusions.
I'm curious as to how he provided a challenge for he if he was calling her
twice a day. She's already won him over, so where is the challenge for her?"):
Also, twice a day is a bit extreme, I think. I'd be curious as to her
answers to this.
(Commenting on: "The first is that his attitude does not make him
physically appealing but his level of confidence frees others to be just as
confident and free with him as he is with them. He looks like the type of
guy who no right thinking woman would look at yet he banged one of the
hottest strippers. Why? I believe it had to do with the biker stripper's
self esteem. What women would allow herself to be roughed up, beaten and
threatened and go back for more? One that probably feels she deserves a guy
with a missing tooth, huge belly, dirty clothes, etc. So his attitude freed
her and gave her confidence yet his physical shape was what appealed to her
in whatever way that may have been."):
Yeah, but look at the quality of girl he attracted. Someone with zero
self-esteem. Where do we push confidence into arrogance that negates other
people entirely and draws only self-hating people to us?
(Commenting on: "Cliff's Comment: This only shows what most of us reading
this know for a fact, that your looks are not the crucial element -- your
attitude is. Those who have met David know that here's a guy who is not
good looking yet you know almost instantly from talking with him that he
has the attitude that will draw the hottest women to him like flies on shit."):
Yes, but Cliff, I've met David and David is NICE to women. He may be a bit
rough and crude, but David likes women, does NOT believe in physically
mistreating them, will bring them a rose after banging them and other stuff
some guys here would falsely consider AFC. David doesn't have to hurt or
negate someone to be cocky and confident. Big difference.
David also uses seductive language, quite naturally. He and I discussed
this when I visited Montreal, as you know.
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Prophet: I'm back in Canada (Guelph) for a month before I take my HB back
to Germany with me. I have been having some trouble sarging because we are
together a lot. While we are here, we are spending time at our respective
parents' houses. That gives me some time to get out alone and after having
taken the trouble to learn these beautiful patterns, I don't want to stop
using them. Are there any brothers in Guelph, Ontario (or Toronto if
necessary) who I could wing with while I'm here? I'm a young, fit,
good-looking 34. Several people have said I look like Sting. Women I tell
patterns to tell me I'm very charming. Sarging with me might be easy
because women give me the long eye and even approach me sometimes (more
often when I was younger and in university, though).
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Dwacon's Treasure of Pleasure
(http://www.sextoysex.com/sex/start/sex.html?a=dwacon):
I think I can appreciate having a good wing man... makes life a lot easier.
Got together with my old gay buddy and it was like shooting fish in a
barrel. Besides escaping the perception of the crazed loner, sarging seems
like less effort with a goose to your maverick. That's why I'm looking
forward to trying that video PUA idea...
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Stephane:
(Commenting on: "Cliff's Comment: Steph, you're getting a little carried away
here... The trick is to be direct but charming at the same time. Being
crude at the
beginning is not going to work with women who have class and
intelligence. You can be just as forward and direct without being crass."):
Crass? What's crass? Licking an asshole? Is that 'crass' enough for ya?
Who says I'm not charming? I'm not tryin to fuck YOU, Cliff : )
Cliff's Comment: There isn't a technique out there that'll do that one for
you.
Stephane Continues:
Crude gets people's ATTENTION in our society! I've always noticed that if
I'm CRUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE, people LISTEN.
Please understand that my view of life is one of agnosticism.
And therefore I wanna make it very clear:
I DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING AT ALL, NOT EVEN THAT!!!
All generalizations eventually break down, even that one.
All I care about in life is my sense of humor and my dick. They make me
feeeeel gooood the most. Everything else is just 'there'. That's all I
have to offer. I don't have
money, I don't have fame, or wealth, all I have is my ability to feel good
and my patience.
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Matthew A.: (Commenting on: "MB: At what point do patterns become so
simple they are no longer patterns? How about just talking about a blow
job? How does just talking about one make it any different from weaving it
into some pattern?"):
Conscious resistance to subconscious desire. Culture has taught us to
resist overt sexual "come-ons." There are obviously some people who are
smart enough not to buy into it, but it is rare, and a segment of
patterning that Ross teaches bypasses the conscious resistance and makes it
easier for the person you are talking to to accept her subconscious
impulses in a frame that is acceptable consciously: stories (third person,)
poetry, jokes, metaphors.
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Gilbert:
Before I start, I like to say I’m only slightly familiar with Ross and Mark
B. I don't know them personally and is possible that I don't understand
their frame of understandings. However, there are some important things
I'd like comment on.
I'm a little more partial to what MB is saying when he states that he'd
like an unfizzling attraction. I'd like a woman to be naturally attracted
to me for the qualities/values/whatever that I already hold. If I
eventually get married, I don't want to have to change who I am, or change
her perceptions radically. I could spend time and thought to keep the woman
and her perceptions congruent with what she is attracted to, but I am not
going to. It's my personality to enjoy a relationship that is both real to
her and real to me. I do not care to be a magician pulling my cloak around
me and only exposing what she wants to see. It also seems, and I disagree,
that MB doesn't like to bring up past instances of when a woman is feeling
a state with some one else. It can be viewed that those feelings, whether
anchored to you or not, are still rooted to some other man. Often I would
agree with MB on a practical application, that I don't like to invoke past
memories of other PEOPLE to have her feel these states. I have had
situations that the woman had the urge to call her ex-borefiend because of
my lack of direction in language. I do not, however, waver in my acceptance
and application to bring a woman into states of lust, fascination, or
horniness by using my verbal language - it's like changing their mood. (BTW
a large factor of "natural attraction" is body language» and personal
energy, both factors that I believe a self-aware person should consciously
guide.) From what I know, RJ seems to be more sly in his seduction; the
woman is feeling the states but hasn't consciously recognized that he's
putting the moves on her. He is more indirect and vague, where MB, I
believe, puts the path that he wants to take with the woman down right from
the get go. I would side with Mark in the issue of being direct; I have
found more success with starting flirty, cocky and to the point. Perhaps
the reason I have found more success is because when you are direct, there
seems to be a quick outcome, either positive or negative, and thus gives
the opportunity for more approaches. These are the points where I believe
MB finds objections with RJ. (It also could be a difference in the chosen
description and communication. Just as I may not understand them, they may
not understand each other.)
When I read MB’s words, they seemed to romanticize attraction and seduction
a little. All extended interactions or relationships require some form of
work and effort. It requires more effort in initially attracting some
women, but I don’t keep ones that require sustained strain. To my logic
however, everything is “natural†in terms where nothing can work outside of
natural universal laws. Things happen and then come the results. The word
natural is dependant on the vernacular, but is based on our understanding
of things. When our understanding changes, the concept of what is natural
does, too. If it feels natural to work a little sneaky hypnosis bit to keep
an HB10, then go ahead.
In reference to the magician and his cloak - being a magician is not how I
would prefer describe using SS tools. I see many SS techniques as skills,
talents and hobbies, if you will. Smooth talk (or patterning) is a way to
get a woman to feel a state, and lets just for this example, feel lust. The
ability in me to make a woman feel lust by the way I talk to her is
something that I desire to be part of my personality.
I personally don't anchor much. If I am lonely or have an "in the moment"
desire, I will continue building a person's state using whatever I can, to
the point where I get what I want. I don't have a need for them after that,
so I structure the seduction accordingly. I, however, in terms of longer
relationships would like girls who are attracted to my inner-self, so I
know that usually I don't need to produce “artificial†attraction. (But
that is only my desired opinion, because really, there is no such thing as
“artificialâ€, and I think many cannot accept that.) The rough idea is that
they like the same kind of stuff I do and think basically similarly so it
works on a general scale. The good part is that the qualities, skills, and
abilities I have, lots of woman and men want. I have a lot of choice in
terms of selection.
I think that RJ’s approach seems more flexible on the woman and her needs.
Not a bad idea to use, because everyone has unfulfilled needs. I applaud
both men for there experience and wisdom and hope they will continue to
help us all gain better insight to PU.
On the kiss openers, I worry a little about what the law might do to me -
what are some suggestions on judging the women before the walkup?
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five683: (Commenting on: "Mark B.: But he did not know that and kept
calling her everyday. Bad right?????? Wrong - after a week of calling her
twice per day and showing interest she is
saying "Mark, this guy is really interested in me," "This guy seems to be
lots of fun," "This guy is
really open, I really like that." This weekend she left her borefriend of 2
years to be with this new
guy."):
Now you guys are confusing me. This goes against everything I've been
reading in these so-called on-line "men's" magazines. Especially people
like "Doc Love" who says the way to get/keep a woman is to "always be a
challenge." So what's a self-respecting lesbian supposed to do
when she thought she found this wealth of information into a woman's psyche
and now I'm getting conflicting information??
Cliff's Comment: I think that Mark's comment doesn't fully take into
account that the guy was persistent in a charming manner, and not in an
annoying, stalking kind of way. I think it is clear that different things
will work on different women in different situations, but I do agree that
being persistent can yield benefits if done properly.
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HouseOFire:
(Commenting on Stephane: Why did she stop at the bra, and why is that ok?
Why does she want to wait? What does she need to know? She's acting like
you are immortal. What is she so afraid of? Getting 'hurt'? FUCKING DOESN'T
HURT! In fact, it
feels pretty damn good."):
She was afraid that once the physical stimulation got too intense, she would
lose her will to say no. And the reason she wanted to say no was a general
principle about how a woman should act. And what she thinks she needs to
know is that it's the third time they were getting together, or something
like that.
I know Mystery and others have suggested cutting off all the physical play
and offering to play checkers, or the like. I'd call this icing her. And
then there's the "I really shouldn't be..." approach, where you just keep
on going while saying that.
I divide these last minute resistance situations into two categories. In
the first category are situations where you know it's going to be a lot of
work to close the deal if you can't close right then and there, or it's then
or never, or she's just not worth the trouble. In the second are situations
where you know it's in the bag the next time you get together and you think
she's worth waiting for (Tristan's).
In this second category I don't want to blow a bird in the hand by trying
too hard to put my hand in the bush. I don't want to ice her. On the other
hand, I've never been successful in overcoming all resistance with the "I
really shouldn't be" approach. The best I've been able to do with that
approach is a little more progress.
Here's a twist that is kind of like icing her, but not harsh. I only tried
this once, but it worked. When the resistance came, I stopped all play and
said something like: "I understand. You'd like to go on as much as I would,
but there's a general principle that prevents you." I didn't validate the
principle by saying I respected it, but I did act respectful of her decision
to follow that principle. The key here was not to argue or persuade, but
simply to name it for what it was - a vague principle, one that she didn't
conceive for herself. I'm guessing that she thought about that prinicple
and it looked pretty pale to her as she sat there - cut off at her own
request. After a short pause she said "HF, you're so smart" and jumped me.
By the way, this girl was a trip. She was a Swede, here doing a stint in a
school for hotel and restaurant management. With regard to foreplay, she
once said: "Let's not waste time." (Okay, this was a while ago and my
technique may have left something to be desired.) She could lube at will.
She'd just close her eyes for a couple of seconds and say she was ready.
Wow!
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NightLight9:
(GameMaster: Since 9/11...did you hear that the frequency of sex is up like
3X since then? We have psychology on OUR side for a change!)
NightLight9 responds: Where did this stat come from? It does seem to me
that people are partying more, and that *should* equate directly to more
sex!
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chrisonic:
(Commenting on: "I call this my "Have you seen Thomas opener"):
I like that opener. I live in Brazil (my English sucks) and there are a
lot of clubs here where the guys go and try to pick up some girls. I notice
that there are 3 types of guys here in the clubs:
1) Guys who approach girls and spend a lot of time (40 to 60 minutes) trying
to kiss close. They normally introduce themselves saying something like:
What should I do to get a princess like you? or You are the best looking
girl in this club, etc. And then talk about where she lives, what she does,
where she works, blah, blah, blah. Totally AFC.
2) Guys who approach and spend about 10 to 20 minutes. These guys are funny
and can entertain girls, and some have a good pick up rate. I think I am
one of those.
3) Guys who go totally kino. They just approach the girl, invade her personal
space, say one or 2 things and in less than 4 minutes start hugging and
trying to kiss close. Their pick up rate is good (like 60%) I tried to notice
what do they say, but it doesn't seem to be anything clever or funny...
I think the key here is the kino, like in the NightLight9's "Have you seen
Thomas opener"
So I have the following questions to NL9:
1) What is the pickup rate you've got using the Thomas opener?
2) What kind of girls have you kiss closed? Were they 8.5 and up? How old were
they?
3) When you failed to kiss close, what did you do?
4) Does it works when you approach a girl who is with her friends?
And what do you other guys think about this kind of approach?
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| cliff’s list advertisment section |
| Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are
just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links
to these emails. The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take
over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such
as proper mailing list software) for this list. If you were going to buy the product
anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going
at no extra cost to anyone. NON SEDUCTION-RELATED:
RECOMMENDED:
NOT REVIEWED YET:
|
| cliff’s free plugs section |
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all
recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back
here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up —
from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of
weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):
|
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