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Who do these women think they’re dealing with?
7/16/02 5:44:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time

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Cliff's List Website
http://www.cliffslist.com/
Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers,
suggested links and referrals to other seduction sites and explanations of
what this list is all about. Seminar, workshop & conference schedules are
on the website also, as is a glossary of terms that may be used here that
you may be unfamilar with.

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Maximillian Hell:
PUAs I have known
I thought I would make my own small contribution regarding PUAs that could
be modeled.
In my frosh year of college I knew a fellow who was then about 24. He was
fairly good looking, but was also fairly overweight. When I describe him to
people, they always respond “He sounds like the guy from the Tao of Steve!”
He was the same size as Donal Logue,
minus the extra stomach padding he wore for the part. He had a mustache,
which was incredibly unfashionable then and made him look much older.
But while I was talking with him in the middle of the quad one day, I
noticed that these gorgeous freshman girls kept coming up to talk to him.
They all had an absolute gleam in their eyes. I really have no idea if he
was laying these chycks, but from the way they
looked at him, they looked ready any time he was. He also did street PU,
from what I heard him say.
He was big on kino, little squeezes on the shoulder I remember in
particular. A year or so later he was big into hand kisses, but I think his
game was diminishing by then. He was jolly, and fairly funny, and always
had a beatific smile. These days, I am trying to do that same smile.
A tall and very good-looking goth PUA I used to know said that his club-PU
tactic was to dance near his target and eventually edge his way towards her
until they were dancing together, and then somehow he would get to know her
from there. He was very much into dancing dramatically in that swirly goth
style. He claimed to have slept with about 60 women (we were both 20 at the
time), including sexual intercourse in alleyways (this is in Vancouver,
where I hear the alleys are built in such a way that they somehow
facilitate this). He was not the bragging sort, and he was good looking, so
I am inclined to believe him. “Savoir-faire” was what was needed for
seduction, he said.
M a retired PUA. He was steering me into ASF-type attitudes before I
discovered ASF. He was unmarried until age 33. He claims that he never went
on a date, or asked a woman for her phone number. Meeting his targets
through friends, particularly at parties
seemed to be his MO. He also highly recommends getting to know families, as
an entrée to HBs. You should finagle an invitation to holiday dinners if
you can.
Among his maxims “Don’t ask women for advice on women. Women do not know
what they want, though they think they do.” Borefriends were no obstacle.
Similar to one of Rio’s essays about PUAs, M is fond of “drifting.” He said
my calculating manner and inability to “drift” and go with the flow was
hurting my game. He claims to have lived a vagabondish existence in his
salad days -- no steady job or domicile.
“Eye contact is key”-he said to me, as though he were inducting me into the
inner circle--“if you abuse this, I will have to reproach you.” Though he
also says that it can be overdone. He likes classic poetry, saying that few
women can resist Byron’s “She Walks in
Beauty.” “Ode to a Grecian Urn” is also recommended.
I’ve been trying to pin him down on the essentials of his game. He says
that making an observation to the woman about her personality or behavior,
was a conversation starter. Observing something that other people would not
notice. For instance he started a convo with an HB because he noticed her
eavesdropping on another convo, and pointed this out to her. It sounds a
lot like pacing to me.
I’ve noticed that he does a lot of silly teasing and kidding around with
one young HB we hang out with. Though he is married, whenever she sees me
alone, she always says “next time you see M, tell him I love him.”

My Ukrainian house mate. He has a very pleasant and easygoing manner. He
has a wife back home, but he appears from all evidence to have slept with a
house mate of ours, and later with her friend and then with another woman
(the HBs spent all night in his room, and then appeared to have a very
romantic glow about them the next morning when I saw them).
He assaults these women with a relentless barrage of teasing, kino, and
silly talk. In How to Succeed with Women, Badalamenti says that Freud said
that teasing plays to women’s masochistic streak. This is exactly what my
grandfather used to do! Now I understand it! My grandmother constantly
fought with him, constantly expressed her antipathy for him, ran back to
her mother when she was young, yet stayed with him for sixty some years.

(On a different note:)
I am having a hard time thinking up fresh negs. Is it OK to neg on
appearance? Many of the negs I see in the layguides deal with some
superficial aspect of appearance, but what about more substantial things?
For example, is it OK to tease a short HB about her height -- to call her a
shrimp or a twerp? This would of course be done with a smile and a playful
manner. I’ve noticed that many adorably petite girls wish that they were
tall. I’ve done a bit of this sort of negging with my house mate, it didn’t
seem to hurt our friendship, we still did stuff together and she liked
being around me, but I didn’t get any sexual success with her, either.
A lot of women in their late 20s are very self-conscious of their perceived
fading beauty. An HB I hadn’t seen in almost a year -- the first thing she
says to me is “how do I look?” Perhaps in this sort of case, the avoidance
of any direct reassuring comment might be a good neg. E.g: “you look fine,”
said in a distant manner, to subtly cast some doubt on her self-image. Or
an initial distant blank stare combined with: “Oh, I didn’t recognize you.”
 “Did you change your hair color?”

The 48 Laws of Power» is very firmly against appearance negs, saying that
you can tease a person on anything but their appearance. What do you all
think?

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Richard:
> Cliff's Comment: I certainly saw that Mystery's way will get you the
hottest women. David's relentless way is such that when he used to go out,
he was going out to get laid and there was no two ways about that. He would
go out, pick up two women, bring them back, do them, take their numbers and
bring them back and then go out and pick up more. He would often do two or
three a night. The key is to find what works for you, what you are
comfortable with, and what fits your style. I think there are common
elements to these methods, such as confidence, strength of personality,
being talkative, being warm and cold at the right times, etc. and the more
you learn the better off you will be.

Richard: With the above in mind, does anyone have or see their way clear,
to create a run down on the currently available methods/styles?...
e.g. Method/Style === Key Elements === Type/target group of women ===
general success ratio === Pro's & Cons
Or something similar? Just a thought, keep it in mind...as some influential
individual might say.
What!...to linear for ya? sorry...Go get yourself a hug ; )

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TBA:
> Cliff's Comment: This is clearly a situation where he is claiming his
territory and you are the enemy. My first thought would be to befriend the
guy - turn the situation around and make him your buddy. Once he's been
disarmed and charmed, the girl will be impressed.

TBA: Well, actually, I kind of did that since we both play on the same team
and the bar is our sponsor. We seemed to get along. But I was sitting next
to this gal (who is fairly flirtatious) who has a short attention span and
as I had just learned some pattern I thought what the hell, I should try it
out on this gal. Well she went very DDB, and the trance state blew me away.
I have tried to befriend potential cb, but it never seems to work as
planned... I now am just beginning to resent this guy, since the chick
eventually pursued him, but I feel if I had more time I may have been able
to do something with it..

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Barry:
This is a comment on the situation, where some guy comes out of nowhere,
and puts his arms around the chicks waist, and she seems to be enjoying
it... While you stand, or sit there feeling like an idiot. This can be an
uncomfortable situation, however you really have to do what Cliff says, and
that is disarm, and charm the cockblocker. I have been in this situation
many times, as I am in an area where alot of people know each other and I
am used to this situation.
Firstly, do not change your state - keep that same attitude you had before
the cockblock shows up. If you change your state or suddenly become quiet,
she will sense this.
Secondly, immediately offer a handshake to the cockblock, introduce
yourself, glad to meet you, are you from this area, etc.
Thirdly, ask "So how do you and say "Carol" know each other... (she may
say, "oh he's just a friend from high school or whatever.. In the meantime,
maintain your eye contact going between them. Once you know how they know
each other, you will know which direction to go in. If you hear things you
would rather not like to hear, and you get ideas that she really wants him,
or worse, that she is romancing him... eject and move on.
Then go around the bar, talking with other chicks or friends... if you
happen to bump into the guy later, say "hey, so are you enjoying your
night? He may offer you some insight as to what is happening... plus you
are charming the cockblock... fire in a compliment about his watch or some
bullshit. Whatever, blab about the N.H.L playoffs, Superbowl, etc. just
don't appear standoffish. Believe it or not, he may invite you back to the
table, or tell you about this hot chick he knows that could be coming in
any minute. The ways, and events that could happen are open to all
possiblilities.. You may bump into some chick that you banged in the past,
but don't want now... so you introduce him to her...(pawn him off) he could
get all caught up, in the chick you introduced... and dance the night away
with her... while you go back sarging the original chick. anything can an
might happen. So I usually befriend the cockblock; actually I met a few
good guys this way, believe it or not, and got to know chicks through the
dudes. I treat the scene like Rick H. does, "This is my V.I.P. party and I
am the biggest V.I.P. here.
Fourthly, after you eject, every now and then, without being obvious,
glance over towards her, and him, to see if they are getting closer,
kissing, or, if things are getting worse for him.
Fifthly, and most of all, just enjoy yourself. There are more women in the
bar... who gives a fuck about her... and if she had any attraction for you
when you are talking to another chick, you may be surprised to see her come
up to you, and start trying to move her way in on you.
Each situation is different, while he could be a real moron when you offer
to shake hands, usually the guy will be friendly to you as he doesn't want
to appear to be an idiot in front of the chick.
Keep in mind that you are out to have fun - you are out to socialize and
meet women. Befriend as many people as you can and don't get all caught up
by one hot babe.

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Roth:
I met you at David D'Angelo's seminar. I am a friend of Arte's (master of
the G-Spot revolution as discussed in Secrets of Sensual Lovemaking and the
New Sex video series www.newsex.org. I am also a licensed and bonded
"squirtologist", as Arte would say. I have found that combining a few
things I learned at the seminar from David, and from Rick H., with my deep
knowledge of Arte's techniques seems to fit my style well and I have a
little success story.
I was coming out of the Rite Aid drug store (you know, typical hot pick up
place) and there, next to my car, in the parking lot stand these two
completely hot 8-9's, one wearing itsy bitsy short shorts with heels and a
tank top that shows off her voluptuous body, the other more elegant and
svelte. I am in my car, just pulling out when I strike up a conversation
with them, using the basic cocky/funny routine and sprinkling all kinds of
spiritual bullshit (astrology, yoga, meditation, etc.) in there because I'm
good at that, when the conversation turns to sex. They ask me what I do for
a living, I have already joked that I am a smuggler, but now I tell them I
own a male escort service. This one is great. I tell the tall one I
specialize in G-spot orgasms. She apparently is VERY familiar with them
(although doesn't seem to have much experience with them) and wants to know
EVERYTHING. I tell her she has to be sufficiently relaxed (she's asking me
how long my massage will be...) and then sufficiently aroused (and tunes
right in when I tell her that I will *not* touch her below the waist until
I see her whole body undulating...). I have not touched her at this point.
My motor is still running and I am in park. I take her hand and hold my
hand over hers without touching, pretending it is her genitals- she is
getting very hot...calls her friend (the voluptuous one) over "you have to
FEEL what he is DOING!!"... Then I spread her fingers open as if it were
her legs and describe how I am going to touch her. With this I touch the
back of her knuckles, pretending it's the g spot, so BARELY, and she
shudders in excitement. She says she has to find a man who can do that. I
say she found one - she says "Erik wants a threesome". Turns out the two of
them are first cousins. Filipinos. Very sexy.
They take my phone number and promise to call and both come over. That gets
convoluted and for a day or so there it seems like they are going to bring
their sister. To make a long story short the voluptuous one ends up coming
over ALONE. She walks in - nearly the same sexy outfit she wore at Rite
Aid! Now she's clacking her heels all over my wood floor and asks if she
should take off her shoes. I tell her I like it better with them on. She
says she does too. Yum. In the kitchen, she asks me what I am making dinner
with and I show her the coconut butter I cook with and tell her to close
her eyes. I take a tiny bit of coconut butter and wipe it on her lips,
slowly teasing her and bringing up the volume. I back away and look at her,
she still wants to suck the butter off my finger... Next we take a tour of
the construction in my house downstairs. We are standing in the midst of
the dust and tools when I begin to start smelling lightly her hand, her
wrist, her arm, all the way up her neck, shoulders, ears, all over her
upper body, NOT GOING ANYWHERE NEAR HER BREASTS... Just teasing and teasing
slowly. When I pull away after 5 or 10 minutes, she sighs and says "wow,
that was like Tai Chi"... Volume knob on its way up... We go back upstairs
and I'm feeding her plenty of wine and herb and she has to take a phone call.
When she gets off I am standing on the stairwell and she comes over and
stands one step below me. Here's where I slap her ass and call her a brat
for being so rude- thanks Rick. Works wonders. Next thing I am kissing her
from above, then step one step below her and kiss her from below, again,
not touching any sexual part of her. Volume turning slowwwllly up. So then
we are back eating the next course and I ask if she wants more wine. She
says yes, but she has a time limit- I say- 11pm? That's in a half hour! She
gives me some lame excuse and I'm thinking I have been moving along way too
slowly.
Fortunately, however, that is NOT the case. She has become so worked up
from my gentle teasing that within 2 minutes of sitting on the couch with
our wine, we are making out heavily. She tells me she likes it when I am in
control, that she likes it rough, that she likes to be slapped. And how the
coconut butter makes her lips feel so soft. I tell her how hot she looks
and how much I love kissing her. The next thing I know, I am delivering the
sequence of the g-spot orgasm, as outlined in Arte's work. She doesn't know
what to do except tell me I really know what I am doing. When I hit her
"spot", she is in wild throes of orgasmic pleasure. Begging me to fuck her.
I don't. I then work on her for a clitoral orgasm. Another burst of
pleasure. We are way past 11pm at this point. Finally, after her giving me
a fantastic blowjob and breastfuck (and in a classic Bill-Monica moment,
tells me she won't shower the next day...) I make her come once more by
only holding her and sucking on her neck. She is totally amazed that she
could get off with no stimulation and asks me how I do that. Trade secrets,
I tell her... Then as she's putting her clothes on, I say "That will be
$300.00". She looks at me- stunned - then sees my smirk and laughs. Classic.
She left some stuff over here and I expect her back today to pick it up
(and pick up where we left off)...maybe next time with her cousin...?
One really great thing that happened the day afterwards when we were
talking about how hot it was when we were getting it on was that she told
me she had never met anyone like me before, that she really admired the
reality that I lived in (my home, music, artistic taste, food, wine,
environment, etc.) and thanked me for welcoming her into it. I travel a
fair amount and collect art and furniture from all over the world, so it
fits with the male escort lifestyle image- plus even if they figure out I
am really in the import export trade (which I am), it still sounds so
mysterious they have no idea what they are dealing with... I thought about
the "make her a guest in your reality" comment from the seminar, and it was
like she was programmed to repeat it back to me. It was so easy, because I
was able to just be myself with her, only with a few hints from the
masters. Props to David D., Rick H. and Arte for their advice and to you
Clifford for running this list.

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GameMaster (DevilBoy Strikes Again!) :
Want to hear something weird...Suzanne, the model of society right? Well, I
have always tried my best to be a gentleman with her and conform to her own
model of the perfect man. Once I figured we weren't really going anywhere I
had her meet me for drinks two weeks ago and the subject came up again of
"are you seeing anybody?" I don't know why but I've always tried to lead
her to believe that business came first and I didn't really have time for
any extracurriculars. Well, I told her about the four girls floating around
out there and about the beach weekend with Shannon. I didn't know what kind
of reaction I would get and figured that would be that cause I've basically
been lying to her but she lit up like a fucking Christmas tree. I guess I
finally found the right doorway with her by accident, proving once again
that they are all freaks and whores, which is a role she plays very well in
bed. She's so goddamn proper it almost makes me uncomfortable but she is a
catch and a half. She's gone from playing hide and seek with me to being
all over me now, which is kind of cool. And she's become very inquisitive,
but in a playful way. Crazy man, I've learned this lesson for the last
time...I just never thought Suzanne would fall into that category.
(Two weeks later) Well, hell Cliff, I can't figure that woman out! I told
her about the other 5 girls, right? That seemed to really peak her
interest, and we went through this phase where she was calling daily and
wanting to get together for this or that...then last Saturday while we were
having lunch she brought it up again and asked "are you having sex with all
these women?" My feigned angelic look gave me away. "You're having sex with
5 other women!!!!!" (ha-I forgot about Felicia from the Club so that's 6
actually. Damn! : ) You know you can get all kinds of STD's including
herpes even using a condom..." Well, the conversation sort of went downhill
from there and she ain't returning my phone calls. Damn Cliff, what did she
think - that I just enjoyed traveling all over the fucking South just to
spend time with these girls? Anyway, the revelation of two weeks ago is
sort of shot to shit! I don't really care cause this will up my stock with
all her girlfriends of which she has many and I'm still enough of a
curiosity to keep in the periphery. She's just showing her disapproval of
the whole thing, I guess. Whatever, I got the bartender at the Club on the
fast track. Remember the other girl Christy I told you about? Well, she
asked around about me at the club and got thumbs-down from everybody, they
all basically agreed I was the Anti-Christ. Well, she's married and I guess
that puts me in the forbidden fruit category cause I can't slow this train
down but right now I'm playing coy...basically against "type" that's been
painted for her by all my ex buddies at the Club. More to follow but she's
talking about taking another week in the fall to fly to Prague with me so
we can stay at her friend's place! This has some interesting possibilities.
Here's the latest with the Betty saga in Florida. OK, now I know this is
just as fucking low as I can get alright...I understand that from the
get-go but she hasn't left me any alternative. Her birthday is
Friday...originally she was flying up for the weekend and she waffled on
that and cancelled. I said 'no problem honey, it's your birthday I'll come
down there and stay at your house.' That was all cool with her until last
week and she started acting all weird and shit and waffling on that deal,
too. I called the house late Saturday nite and her hubby answered the phone
"Hello, GameMaster"! Can you believe that shit? So anyway, he's taking the
kids out of town for the weekend and leaving her unattended. She was still
waffling on me and wanted to know what my expectation was for the weekend.
So I told her I had a surprise for her (now I didn't have no fuckin
surprise but I figured I better throw out some bait at this point -
actually my surprise was to videotape her being fucked in the ass!
hahahahaha) So more waffling and more stuff designed to just piss me off to
the point where I would just say FUCK IT like telling me she had to go play
Goddamn bingo with friends on Saturday nite and I'd be on my own! Now, you
know I don't take this shit lightly so I countered with an Academy Award
performance of hurt feelings, etc., etc., and then I told her the surprise
was an engagement ring. Now Betty knows me pretty well by now and she
called bullshit on that immediately....called it a 'calculated tactic' that
she expected. So, I dug out my ex's old ring and went to Kinko's and faxed
her a copy of the thing with best wishes to go "fuck off" basically. Well,
my calculated tactic paid off. I'm expected for dinner Thursday nite and
it's a 'no restriction' weekend.
Two days ago it was a "no sex" weekend....yeah, right! Who do these women
think they're dealing with????? BTW, I'm taking this "cursed" ring with me
but I also plan to bring it back home now that I find how much utility this
thing has! haw haw haw
Oh yeah this is funny! Maureen came by late Saturday nite after June had
just left to go pick up her kid. She took one look at my disheveled ass and
said "you just got laid, didn't ya?" Well, duh! Anyway, that eliminated me
from contention with her for Saturday nite but she countered with
this...."look, I've got some STUFF and I want to take a nite off and come
over and trip with you, but I have to bring home $200 so 'my man' won't get
suspicious." (He's a dick.) Anyway, I told Maureen I'd split it with her
and give her $100 and make sure she was out the door by 5:00AM. I figure
that's about $8 an hour for her time which is a fucking deal and we've
never spent more than an hour together at a time so this should be fun. She
also told me Raquel was coming to town for 2 weeks and was looking for a
place to stay! I told Maureen we could work something out. Apparently
Raquel (Cliff's note: GameMaster almost married Raquel) still has feelings
but I haven't heard from her since I caught her in bed with a customer that
nite. Fucking whores all of em! Anyway, I'm sure there's drama galore
coming with this deal. : )
Cliff, I got way too much time on my hands.

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Tenore:
I have been trying to develop an approach that is both effective, and yet
relatively comfortable for me. I am in my mid 50's, and I need to lose
about 15 lbs. So I am at a *significant* disadvantage with respect to many
(most) of you guys. At the same time, I have capitalized upon my advantages
as best I can. I have grown my hair quite long, which attracts hot babes,
in spite of the bald spot at the top. (One lovely lady even proclaimed,
during lovemaking, that she found my bald spot a turn-on, and her actions
surely proved it). I have also learned to give off the “Alpha Male»â€
impression (or at least something reasonably close to it) by the way I walk
and move. This is something that until about age 40 I had never done in my
entire life. In fact, I was quite the opposite, and undoubtedly it showed.
But after thinking about it for a while, I determined to learn by trial and
error what the Alpha Male» behavior is like, asking myself, in essence,
“What is there to lose?” I think many guys learned, when young, not to act
like that, or risk getting beat up by another would-be Alpha. As adults,
that habit has now become counter-productive, and should be discarded.
Assuming that you stay out of Biker Bars and stick to Singles/Pickup
places, and assuming that you are not belligerent with men and keep your
actions civil, there is simply NO reason to act otherwise. Even in the
business world, to carry oneself like a Hot Stud does NOT really hurt
anything, so long as you continue to be a “diligent businesslike guy” in
your work.
As might be expected, the women I am getting are mostly in the age range of
35-45. However, some of them are *extremely* fine, and I am sure that even
many of you mid-20s guys would drool at the prospect of bedding them. In
fact, what is extremely gratifying to me is that I am getting some
excellent feedback and Indicators of Interest (IOI) from a number of Young
Hotties, age 25-30 or even less. I haven’t yet bedded one of these,
although I have hopes of succeeding. I have been watching a lot of much
younger and more aggressive guys than me operating with them, and they
don’t have any greater success.
I have been hanging around a major Party Beach in southern California. At
first I was hanging around a hot club there (yes, guys past 50 *do*
sometimes go to clubs where young hotties hang out, and seem to do no worse
than younger guys). For various reasons, I decided to change that approach,
not the least being having to drive home at 2:00 AM. One PUA I ran into
exiting the club had a remarkably ballsy approach: instead of hanging
around inside the club all night, he and his buddy stood outside on the
sidewalk at the 1:30 AM closing time, trying to snare some pussy heading
out. He has a very aggressive attitude and I am sure that he must succeed
sometimes, although he did not succeed the day I met him. He greeted me as
a fellow PUA, and I regret not actually making his acquaintance. Hopefully
I will later.
A better approach (for me) has been to hang around somewhere, and look for
significant IOIs. At the beach area I'll sit on the seawall, or get coffee,
or beer at a beachside bar. Elsewhere I just hang around wherever hotties
are found, and try to act Alpha. I chat up any babe who seems interested.
If the conversation keeps going long enough, and we end up doing kino,
etc., I can generally bed her. It’s sort of like fishing: toss out the
bait, and see who nibbles. I recently got a *wonderful* IOI from a
stunningly beautiful tall European babe, only about 28, who was waiting for
a bus. We chatted a bit, I pointed out that she was about to get on a bus
going in the wrong direction, and straightened her out. Her eye contact
with me was simply astonishing. I got her email and her workplace (a café),
and will definitely follow up. Notice that I am not using any “patterns”,
or “cold walkups.” For those who are, if they work for you, that’s great. I
merely want to point out that getting babes is *not* a “one size fits all”
activity.
A question: one poster said that the “strict Daddy” approach is the best
way for an older guy to get younger chicks. I don’t see that in the
glossary. Can somebody please explain what that is, and how it works?

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Ritual:
Ritual (formerly Josh) has a new online seduction course available. You can
check it out at:
http://www.PowerSeduction.com

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David:
Is there anyone married (besides me) out there who's practicing this stuff?
I'm trying to figure out how to modify the basic Speed Seduction» techniques
for a situation where you have a wedding ring on. I'd appreciate any advice
anyone has. Also, does anyone know of any Lair groups in New York City? I'd
like to join one.

Cliff's Comments: Assuming that you are doing this covertly, I think you
need to be very direct with your target and be satisfied with the women who
don't mind going out with a guy who is married - there are a lot of women
who will date married men and if you are clear with them up front, you only
have one woman to worry about who might find out what you are up to.
Obviously I don't know your situation but I personally would like to think
that if I was married I would not want to be still looking (or, if I was
still looking, it would be to share with my wife ; ) and not to substitute
for what is missing).
Have you gotten Major Mark's Scoring with Married Women book? See
www.trucor.com.

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