mASF post by "NYpartyguy"
posted on: mASF forum: Advanced Discussion, February 2, 2005On 2/23/05 7:54:10 AM, intlzncster wrote:
>That's not the only group I've
>instructed with. Also, I've
>never been paid,
>and hence remain objective. I
>owe allegance to no one.
I don't know. If you're guest instructing, it only makes sense that you plan on
instructing for money, or else why give away your free labor? Considering what
you know about making money, I'd say that you will instruct. And given that, I
don't see how you can remain objective.
>The fact that I've been
>exposed to a large number of
>students makes me
>qualified to judge what
>students are like. Since you
>are an "empirical"
>guy, any sample of 30+ from
>any population is considered
>to be statistically
>significant, that is,
>representative of the whole.
>By instructing/being
>exposed to more than 30
>students, I've got a good idea
>as to the makeup of
>the the entire body of
>students in the market.
No need to qualify yourself to me.
>>It's very rare that I find
>any instructor taking other
>workshops.
>
>What about Harmless? I
>believe he stood in on some
>Juggler stuff at the
>Austin Summit.
He didn't pay to take a workshop. Most instructors hang out with other
instructors and network ideas. Everyone is always trying to improve, but they
don't pay to take workshops anymore. They are now part of the elite and gather
the information for free.
Furthermore, no workshop would be worth all of that money to them. They don't
need it; they have a system that works. Any instructor should be getting laid
and thus not need to pay lots of money for a workshop.
>And realize that an instructor
>taking another workshop is a
>commercial clash
>of interest. A manager of
>McDonald's will NEVER eat at
>Burger King. Its
>business 101 bro.
Actually, that's not true. After one workshop, you should NEVER need to take
another workshop again. If I were you, I'd check out some of Badboy's stuff, I
think you'd find his views on this subject interesting.
>That's not a smart comment.
>Dude, the best guys never stop
>learning. I
>haven't been to a summit, but
>I've heard that the best guys
>are extremely
>eager to get some
>"instruction" from each other
>so they can suppliment their
>game with different methods.
>There isn't a player in the
>game that isn't
>psyched to learn from other
>good guys (unless said
>player's ego isn't the
>size of Asia), shit even
>instructors learn from their
>students.
>Professional golfers are the
>best at their game, yet nearly
>all of them have
>swing coaches, sports
>pyschologists, trainers, etc.
>They understand they
>need additional
>input/instruction to grow and
>improve and continue to be
>successful.
>
>Anyone who stops learning, is
>dead (metaphorically
>speaking). Might as well
>pack up shop and get into a
>different game.
Allow me to clarify my statement. Professional instructors don't need to pay to
take a workshop. However, you are right, they never stop learning. However,
they're getting feedback for free, which is diff. than paying a lot of money to
take a workshop. I know you don't feel it is, so we'll just have to agree to
disagree on that one.
>This is because you are new to
>personal development and the
>game.....and if
>not, I hope you experience the
>growth you are looking for.
Your cold reading has been way off.
>Exactly. Very good point,
>but, as instructors are not
>highly skilled
>teachers, it puts more onus on
>the student to do the bulk of
>the learning.
>They haven't gone through
>years of training to learn how
>to teach, and
>students are well equipped to
>learn (humans are learning
>machines, not to
>mention school, sports, video
>games, music, art, etc...), so
>they should do
>it.
Agreed, but a student is only as good as the instruction he is getting. That's
why some workshops are better than others. If you feel that all workshops are
of equal quality and all offer the same level of instruction, then I'd suggest
you take a few more workshops.
The results of one students may vary, but the majority of students will show
similar results. In fact, that's how you can tell which workshops are better,
by the percentage of students who see success.
>Fair enough, but you can't
>fault me for pointing out
>advice that I felt was
>misinformed. And please don't
>give me the marketing thing
>again, because as
>I said before, I don't
>disagree with you on this.
>And an even perspective
>is always a good thing.
That's fair and you have every right to do that. I just felt that you were
attacking students and putting the full blame on them if a workshop doesn't
work. I felt that wasn't fair and that lead us here. However, I do agree with
what you just said above.
>I come here occasionally and
>scan through the good posts.
>What I've found
>is that there is a large
>enough amount of flaming on
>this board, to the
>point where alot of the good
>learnings are lost.
I agree with that also.
>You just don't get it. The
>same scarcity frame we talk
>about when dealing
>with women applies to money as
>well. Probably moreso. We
>say don't worry
>about the interaction with
>that one particular girl,
>because there is a
>million others close by. Same
>thing applies to money. It's
>all around us,
>you just have to figure out
>how to tap into that vein.
>The first step is
>fixing your beliefs around
>money. I'm not trying to be
>condescending, I'm
>being serious. I want you to
>get this. Poor people usually
>remain poor
>because of their beliefs in
>themselves and their beliefs
>around money.
I do get it. However, at a certain age the expenses out number the income.
Generally, in college (who are the ones who need workshops the most and thus
the biggest client base) there is a lot to spend money on. Did you know that
most men acquire their greatest level of financial success between the ages of
45-55? My point wasn't that money is unreachable, but my point was that
students at that age can't throw it away. They need the best workshop and the
best program so that they don't need to take another one.
You also tried to cold read my general statements into personal facts about me.
However, I am not whining about money b/c I could afford another workshop if I
had to. I do relate to those who are struggling though.
There are some guys who jump around from workshop to workshop b/c they can't
find a good one to give them what they really need. Most of the real PU
development will happen on your own, outside of workshops anyway.
>I'm not old, nor am I rich
>(but on my way to both :).
>I'm under 30, and in
>a wealth creation phase of my
>life.
>I refer to college kids as
>young and inexperienced,
>because the greatest
>level of personal growth in
>most western societies occurrs
>during the period
>of mid twenties to early
>thirties.
Then I guess I am in my greatest level of personal growth. Your comment on
college kids annoyed me b/c you just did an awful cold read on me and inferred
I was in college. Probably, I am right around your age.
>My point was that you only
>throw that 1500 away if you
>choose to. If you
>want to, you can get a
>shitload out of a workshop.
>My friend Chariot, now
>an instructor for RSD, took a
>workshop just under a year
>ago. It vaulted
>his game to untold levels,
>because he busted his balls
>during workshop. His
>game is now one of the
>tightest I've ever seen,
>surpassed only by PlayboyLA
>(this is just from guys I've
>hung out with). I haven't
>seen Toecutter yet.
disagree about throwing the money away. All workshops are not great. This
mindset that just b/c something is labeled a workshop does not make it great.
There are lots of guys who feel they wasted their money by taking certain
workshops. Then they take others and they see amazing success. How do you
account for the difference? They certainly put in the same work in both, yet
now they are getting what they want.
Any of us who took a workshop and it didn't work, and we then found a better
one, feel that we wasted our money. We wish we just went to the great workshop
in the first place. That was my point, and I feel it all comes back to the
skill and dedication of the instructor to the student.
>Look most people, especially
>in this community, want to be
>spoon fed. They
>feel they have a divine right
>to this PU knowledge and
>skillset. It is
>another symptom of the learned
>helplessness that I mentioned
>in my last
>post. That is the feeling I
>get from you. Please correct
>me if I'm wrong.
You're wrong. There are some people who feel this way, but they are small
minority. Most guys just want to be put in the right direction.
As for me personally, I don't know where you got that from. You don't know
anything about my past experiences or efforts in this game. All you know is
that i think 1500 is a lot of money to waste and that i think workshops need to
take some responsibility for their students' success. How that translates into
me believing I am entitled to anything, I am just not sure.
>>You know what they say
>about what happens when you
>ASSume, right?
>
>Here are a few of your
>sentences:
>
>1. "Since you're not around
>here much"
You stated that this is why you didn't like to post here; hence you aren't
around a lot. You stated it.
>2. "tangent about how you're
>old and rich and we can all be
>old and
>rich"
You implied it by stating how I was inexperienced about money and then
qualifying yourself as a financial expert for whom it is easy to make money.
>3. "Judging by your post, you
>are not familiar with workshop
>students.
>Nor are you even aware of why
>workshops exist in the first
>place"
That was an assumption. You got me on 1 out of 3. Good odds if you're betting
on horses, bad results if you're taking a test.
>All of these are assumptions.
>Don't be a hypocrite.
Pot and kettle. You told me I was in college ,and thus young and inexperienced(
which is a double assumption in 1 statement) and I didn't get it about money.
All were false assumptions.
>>Awwwww, that's so cute,
>you have the Shark CD also.
>
>It's lame when you try and use
>an ASF AMOG tactic in post.
>It comes off
>very weak. And yes that
>includes when TD and other top
>guys do it.
It's also lame to use someone else's words in an attempt to be cool.
>Anyone can get this loan man.
>You don't need the to have the
>collateral
>upfront, because you put up
>future collateral (generally
>property that you
>plan to purchase) on the loan.
>You need to work on your
>financial
>intelligence.
You cannot walk into a back and get a 1 million dollar loan with no collateral.
If you're going to buy property, you can take out equity. However, you need
money to buy the property. The fact still remains, you need money. You're being
misleading. You need to work on being more honest and direct.
>And my point was that the
>reason it was a waste of money
>was because of you,
>not the workshop. While a
>workshop might not have been
>great, I can see by
>your attitude that you did not
>get all out of it that you
>could.
You haven't been right with any of your cold reads yet. Do you really think you
have this one right?
>LOL. What are they sheep?
Nope, just guys who want it to be true b/c it gives them hope.
>You still miss my point. Each
>individual is responsible for
>himself. If
>you give that responsibility
>to someone else you will get
>burned. Each
>workshop instructor has a
>responsibility to deliver the
>goods, but the
>student has the full
>responsibilty to learn it.
>The instructor can't shake
>you by the shoulders and say,
>"You've got to learn this
>stuff man!"...and
>then its magically handled.
Totally agreed, and that's what I was saying all along. The instructor has to
deliver the goods. He has to make sure that all the students are getting the
proper instruction. I am glad you finally agree with me.
>If you don't think there are
>degrees of bad internals, you
>are on CRACK.
You just criticized me for assuming above, and now you're assuming again. Can
you stay consistent.
>Every guy is different, and
>some dudes come from much
>tougher mental spaces
>than others. There is a whole
>spectrum of good and bad
>internals. My point
>was that some guys internals
>are so bad, that they refuse
>to help
>themselves. Even when someone
>is trying to teach them, they
>subconciously
>refuse the help and make
>excuses as to why they can't
>make something work
>for them.
No, some guys are closed-minded. They refuse to accept that their reality might
be wrong (like telling a stranger over the internet that they are young and
inexperienced b/c that person disagreed with them). It isn't from bad
internals, it is from closed-minded ness. Anyone who is open-minded, no matter
how bad his internals, can be taught.
>Too bad, you could really
>learn something from that guy.
Time is valuable.
>They is both Anthony Robbins
>and Richard Branson. One of
>the foremost
>leaders in the world around
>personal development and one
>of the worlds most
>successful businessmen, much
>more highly qualified men to
>speak on the
>subject than you and I will
>ever be.
Only if you buy into their frame, which you clearly have.
>If you deal only in the
>empirical, you are missing out
>on the good stuff in
>life.
I deal with evidence. I am not going to follow something with no proof. I don't
need fancy anecdotes. I want to see proof. The only thing I am missing out on
is a reality that doesn't really exist.
>You'll never develop
>"natural" game, as badboy
>likes to put it.
Thank you for the negative reenforcement, but I believe I am already developing
natural game». Another failed cold read.
>Are you kidding??? What does
>a coach say to his team at the
>end of a game
>(even if the odds are against
>them)? Does he say, "Sorry
>guys, we can't
>win. Go home. Pack it in."?
>
>Not even close. He'll more
>likely say something along the
>lines of ,
>"Common' boys, get out there!
>You can do this! We've got
>them right where
>we want them."
That's saying words of encouragement, not lying. It's ok to tell a guy he's
doing great, even if he isn't. It's ok to give a guy confidence. It is not ok
to set him up for failure when he realizes he can't achieve what you promised
him. If you are honest with people, they will respond a lot better, and you
won't have any backlash.
I can tell you why no one criticizes Badboy b/c he does what he says, and
that's the model I would like to see all workshops take. I believe that would
be beneficial to the community as a whole.
>What instructors try to do is
>give students certainty around
>their game.
>Make them believe. Its
>fundamental to developing
>inner game» from nothing.
Yes, but being somewhat realistic helps as well. Telling guys they can "get
every girl out there" and "get their game up to speed" or" get that one special
girl you have always wanted" is just hype. Guys will be very disappointed when
they can't get any girls b/c they need more experience.
There needs to be some level of integrity. Guys who write negative reviews do
so b/c they promised something that wasn't delivered. You can make them believe
without lying. If Badboy does it, anyone can do it.
>>>Optimism rules!
>
>>I agree with that also.
>
>Obviously, you do not, as most
>of your points were very
>negatively geared,
>bent at attacking not
>helping/explaining.
I view it more as defending the workshop students who I felt you attacked. Your
initial post was anything but optimistic. It was all whining. None of your
responses showed much optimism either. Now you're going to tell me what I
believe in.
Look, leave the cold reading at home. You're not that good at it yet. Don't
bother telling me what I believe in, if you're just going to be wrong. I
probably did take on your negative frame in my replies.
I think you're misguided in some areas, but you're probably a genuinely good
guy and I can understand what your points are. My only advice is not to make
false assumptions b/c if you're wrong, it takes away from your credibility and
your point won't be taken as seriously.
>Best,
>
>intlzncster
>
-NYPG
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